[Joint House and Senate Hearing, 112 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
FROM ARAB SPRING TO COPTIC WINTER:
SECTARIAN VIOLENCE AND THE STRUGGLE FOR
DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN EGYPT
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 15, 2011
__________
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COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
LEGISLATIVE BRANCH COMMISSIONERS
HOUSE
SENATE
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland,
Chairman Co-Chairman
JOSEPH R. PITTS, Pennsylvania SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama TOM UDALL, New Mexico
PHIL GINGREY, Georgia JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
ALCEE L. HASTINGS, Florida ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia
New York MARCO RUBIO, Florida
MIKE McINTYRE, North Carolina KELLY AYOTTE, New Hampshire
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
EXECUTIVE BRANCH COMMISSIONERS
MICHAEL H. POSNER, Department of State
MICHAEL C. CAMUNNEZ, Department of Commerce
ALEXANDER VERSHBOW, Department of Defense
(ii)
FROM ARAB SPRING TO COPTIC WINTER:
SECTARIAN VIOLENCE AND THE STRUGGLE
FOR DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN EGYPT
----------
November 15, 2011
COMMISSIONERS
Page
Hon. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman, Commission on Security and
Cooperation in Europe.......................................... 1
Hon. Joseph R. Pitts, Commissioner, Commission on Security and
Cooperation in Europe.......................................... 4
Michael Posner, Assistant Secretary for Democracy, Human Rights
and Labor, U.S. Department of State............................ 5
Hon. Robert Aderholt, Commissioner, Commission on Security and
Cooperation in Europe.......................................... 23
MEMBER
Hon. Gus Bilirakis (R-12), a Member of Congress from the State of
Florida........................................................ 17
WITNESSES
Dina Guirguis, Egyptian American Rule of Law Association......... 18
Samuel Tadros, Research Fellow, Center for Religious Freedom,
Hudson Institute............................................... 24
Dr. Michele Dunne, Director, Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle
East, Atlantic Council......................................... 27
APPENDICES
Prepared statement of Hon. Christopher H. Smith.................. 36
Prepared statement of Hon. Benjamin L. Cardin.................... 39
Prepared statement of Michael Posner............................. 40
Prepared statement of Dina Guirguis.............................. 44
Prepared statement of Samuel Tadros.............................. 47
Prepared statement of Dr. Michele Dunne.......................... 50
(iii)
FROM ARAB SPRING TO COPTIC WINTER:
SECTARIAN VIOLENCE AND THE STRUGGLE
FOR DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION IN EGYPT
----------
November 15, 2011
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Washington, DC
The hearing was held at 2 p.m. in room 210, Cannon House
Office Building, Washington, DC, Hon. Christopher H. Smith,
Chairman, Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe,
presiding.
Commissioners present: Hon. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman,
Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe; Hon. Joseph
R. Pitts, Commissioner, Commission on Security and Cooperation
in Europe; and Hon. Robert Aderholt, Commissioner, Commission
on Security and Cooperation in Europe.
Member present: Hon. Gus Bilirakis (R-12), a Member of
Congress from the State of Florida.
Witnesses present: Michael Posner, Assistant Secretary for
Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, U.S. Department of State;
Dina Guirguis, Egyptian American Rule of Law Association;
Samuel Tadros, Research Fellow, Center for Religious Freedom,
Hudson Institute; and Dr. Michele Dunne, Director, Rafik Hariri
Center for the Middle East, Atlantic Council.
HON. CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, CHAIRMAN, COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND
COOPERATION IN EUROPE
Mr. Smith. The Commission will come to order. And I
apologize for the lateness in convening the hearing. And I
would ask our witnesses and our audience to have some
forbearance.
There are a series of votes on the floor of the House that
will have members coming in and out. But I want to assure our
distinguished Assistant Secretary Michael Posner that all of us
and those who are not here will read your testimony very
carefully and are very grateful that you're here to give
testimony to us today.
I want to welcome all of you to our second Helsinki
Commission hearing on the volatile and dangerous situation
facing Coptic Christians in Egypt following the Arab Spring.
And our hearing is entitled ``From Arab Spring to Coptic
Winter: Sectarian Violence and the Struggle for Democratic
Transition in Europe.'' The world watched with hope and
anticipation, and for some of us, with trepidation as events
unfolded in Tahrir Square earlier this year.
This spring we saw Christians standing guard over Muslims
during Friday prayers in the middle of the square. We saw
Muslims standing guard over Christians as they celebrated Mass
in Tahrir.
Sadly, much has changed since then. While many of those who
came together to forge the revolution want to continue that
solidarity as they support Egypt's political transition, there
are many others--far too many others who do not.
The transition period has been increasing in violence
against Coptic Christians. The current Egyptian government
controlled by the Supreme Alliance Council of the armed forces
has not adequately responded to this violence, has not
protected vulnerable Coptic Christians and as we have seen on
video, to our horror, has even committed acts of violence
against Coptic protestors.
On Sunday, October 9th, 27 people were killed and more than
300 injured in Maspero when Egyptian military attacked a
peaceful group of Coptic Christians protesting the burning of a
church in Aswan and demanding the removal of the governor of
Aswan who had justified the mob's destruction of the church.
In this massacre in Maspero, witnesses saw the army firing
on Coptic demonstrators with live ammunition and plow through
the crowd with armored vehicles. Soldiers raided and stopped
the live broadcast of two independent news channels that had
been covering the clashes.
At the same time, state-run television and radio reported
that the Coptic demonstrators had attacked the military and
called for honorable citizens to defend the army against
attack, inciting violence against the Coptic minority.
Amid widespread domestic and international outrage over the
events, the White House issued a statement on October 10th
saying that, quote, ``The president is deeply concerned about
the violence in Egypt and that has led to a tragic loss of
life. Now is the time for restraint on all sides so that
Egyptians can move forward together to forge a strong and
united Egypt.''
With all due respect, the president seems to have
completely missed the point. This is not a situation of equal
power and equal responsibility for violence. This was not a
lawless gang clash on the street or a mob marauding the streets
in the absence of a government. The Coptic community was
protesting the fact that the Egyptian government in Aswan
failed to protect Coptic property and allowed a mob to burn
down the Coptic place of worship.
When Copts called on the military government to treat the
Copts as equal citizens and protect their rights, the
government itself turned on them with a massacre. The time has
come to ask if this government going to be better than the
Mubarak thug regime. This same government is investigating
itself for the incident and its assault on human rights
continues.
In fact, the military has arrested at least 28 people,
mostly Copts, in connection with the clashes, including
prominent blogger Alaa Abd El Fattah. These individuals are
being hauled before military prosecutors.
To date, despite multiple videos and eyewitnesses' accounts
showing the military's use of lethal violence against peaceful
protestors, the Egyptian military has yet to take
responsibility for its actions or otherwise demonstrate that it
will protect all Egyptians, including the Coptic minority who
make up more than 10 percent of its population.
According to the press reports of last week, a member of a
government-backed fact-finding committee said that the Egyptian
army did not use live ammunition to disperse protestors during
the October 9th incident.
Yet, Hafez Abu Sayed Seada, a senior figure in the
government-sponsored National Council for Human Rights, which
set up the committee, also said that an independent
investigation was needed to establish the full facts and that
some state institutions, including the army, did not cooperate
fully with the committee. Rights activists including the Arab
Network for Human Rights Information and Human Rights Watch
have criticized the report for a lack of detail. Tragically,
the massacre at Maspero is not an isolated incident but rather
a continuation of the endemic discrimination against and the
marginalization of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
According to the 2010 State Department international
religious freedom report for Egypt, and I quote, ``The status
of respect for religious freedom by the government remained
poor, unchanged from the previous year.'' Christians and
members of the Baha'i faith, which the government does not
recognize, face personal and collective discrimination,
especially in government employment and their ability to build,
renovate or repair places of worship.
The government failed to prosecute perpetrators of violence
against the Coptic Christians, according to the State
Department report, and failed again to redress laws,
particularly laws relating to church construction and
renovation and government practices, especially government
hiring that discriminates against Christians, especially
allowing their discriminatory effects and their modeling effect
on society to become further entrenched. The U.S. Commission on
International Religious Freedom has noted that, and I quote,
``In response to sectarian violence, Egyptian authorities
typically conduct reconciliation sessions between Muslims and
Christians as a means of resolving disputes. In some cases,
authorities compel victims to abandon their claims to legal
remedy. The failure to prosecute perpetrators fosters a climate
of impunity,'' close quote.
A report by the Egyptian Initiative for Human Rights
covering the period from January '08 to January 2010 documented
53 incidents of sectarian violence, about two incidents per
month that took place in 17 of Egypt's 29 governorates. Most of
the attacks were by Muslims on Christians and Christian
churches or property. Egypt will not reach, I would submit, its
democratic goals through the oppression of its minority
peoples.
Democracy does not come with an iron fist. Rather,
democracy springs from the belief that all people are created
equal and have the right to participate in their own
governance. A legitimate government is of the people, by the
people and for the people, including minorities. A legitimate
government submits to the rule of law.
The Egyptians demonstrated their belief in Tahrir Square
but seem to be losing their way, spinning backwards into
tyrannical abuses of power. If there is any hope for a
democratic and peaceful Egypt, the Copts must be allowed to
contribute actively to Egyptian society and to the
transformation of their country without fearing for their
lives.
I'd like to now introduce our very distinguished first
witness, a man I've known for many years when he used to work
for the committee for legal scholars--the lawyers rights
committee--as well as for other human rights organizations in
the past--Human Rights First. And I'll introduce him and I
understand there is another vote. It's on.
And I will have to report to the floor. So we'll be in
brief recess and then Mr. Posner--Secretary Posner, we'll ask
you to present your testimony. And I know some of the members
will be back then. But so maybe on that point I'll just--we'll
be in recess for just a few minutes. Sorry about that. The
commission will resume its hearing. I'd like to yield to
Commissioner Joe Pitts from Pennsylvania.
HON. JOSEPH R. PITTS, COMMISSIONER, COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND
COOPERATION IN EUROPE
Mr. Pitts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
holding this important hearing. It is important that we
continue to stand by the people of Egypt as they seek a stable
and transparent democracy where all Egyptian citizens are
treated equally. Recent trends in Egypt in terms of attacks
against minorities are deeply disturbing.
Reports indicate that on October 16, teenager Ayman Labib
was in his Arabic class when the teacher told him to get rid of
the cross tattooed on his wrist. When Ayman said it was a
tattoo, the teacher asked the other students, quote, ``What are
we going to do about this,'' end quote. And he incited the
students in the class to attack Ayman.
Ayman tried to flee but ultimately the students, with the
support of their teachers, murdered this young man. Egyptian
news media controlled by the military government, has tried to
deny the sectarian reasons for this brutal murder. After the
new antidiscrimination law put into place after October 9 when
Egyptian security forces ran over Copts with bulldozers, will
those teachers and adults and students be brought to justice
for this brutal murder?
The October 9 attacks by the military against peaceful
protestors do not bode well for the protection of fundamental
rights for all Egyptians. The Egyptian military must bring the
perpetrators of these violent acts to justice through a
transparent investigation which punishes those truly
responsible for those heinous acts.
I still have hope for a peaceful Egypt but that will only
happen if those who care about the protection of all people are
in power. I look forward, Mr. Chairman, to hearing from our
guests. I look forward to hearing from administration officials
about specific actions they have taken to uphold and protect
the rights of minorities in Egypt. With that, I yield back.
Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Commissioner Pitts. I'd
like to now introduce Michael Posner, who has served as
assistant secretary of state for the Bureau of Democracy, Human
Rights and Labor since September of 2009.
Prior to joining the State Department, Mr. Posner was the
executive director and the president of Human Rights First,
where he established himself as a leader in the defense of many
critical human rights issues. He holds a J.D. from the
University of California at Berkeley and his full resume will
be made a part of the record without objection. But I welcome
Secretary Posner to our commission. Please proceed.
MICHAEL POSNER, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS
AND LABOR, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Sec. Posner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
hearing, for inviting me to testify. We've worked together for
many years and I'm always appreciative and admiring of your
passion, your commitment, your determination, your unflagging
energy to the cause of human rights. So I appreciate your doing
this today and I welcome, Congressman Pitts, your participation
as well.
As you know, this is a time of substantial transition in
Egypt as Egyptians strive to move their country towards
democracy. It's not an easy process and it's not going to
happen overnight. Egypt is only starting on the path from
parliamentary elections that will begin in a couple of weeks to
the process of drafting a new constitution and to presidential
elections.
As part of this process, it's vital that there be a place
in the new Egypt for all citizens, all religious minorities, of
which the Coptic Christian community is the largest. While the
focus of this hearing and my testimony is on the situation of
the Copts, I want to point out there are other religious
minorities that also suffer official discrimination, groups
like the Baha'i, groups in the Muslim community--Shia,
Ahmadiya, Quranist--as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
The Government continues to refuse to recognize conversions
of Muslims to Christianity or other religions which constitutes
a prohibition in practice. I want to set this testimony in a
broader context. Last week, Secretary Clinton gave an important
policy address in which, Congressman Pitts, she echoed
something that you just said. She said: We support the
aspirations of citizens to live in societies that guarantee
freedom, including freedom of expression, assembly and
religion. We strongly believe in systems that allow citizens a
say in how they're governed and that they will--that they will
be provided with economic opportunities.
These are the demands we heard in Tahrir Square where Copts
and Muslims joined hands to protest and to pray. We've heard
similar demands echoing throughout the Middle East and
elsewhere. Secretary Clinton also spoke out consistently about
the importance of religious freedom and religious tolerance
both of which are fundamental human rights. Religious freedom
is guaranteed by international human rights law.
I have a longer written statement which I ask be made part
of the record. But I just want to make three broad points about
the Copts in Egypt. The first is that they have faced
discrimination for many years. They face personal and
collective discrimination especially in government employment,
the ability to build, renovate and repair places of worship.
Although they represent about 10 percent of the population,
they play an important role in Egypt's economy. They've
suffered widespread discrimination and remain underrepresented
in prominent positions in Egyptian politics and society. The
headlines tell a disturbing story. I was actually in Egypt in
January 2010 when there was the horrendous attack on the Nag
Hammadi Church in Upper Egypt.
Gunmen shot and killed seven people and worshippers who
were leaving midnight mass. Yesterday actually the government
official news agency announced that two of the suspects in that
murder who had previously been acquitted are about to be
retried on December 19th, which is a positive sign. But the
attacks and the violence has gone on.
About a year after the Nag Hammadi attack, on January 1st
of this year, a bomb exploded at the Coptic Orthodox Church of
the Two Saints of Alexandria, killing 23 people and wounding a
hundred. There are, today, no suspects in custody. The second
point is that the violent attacks that are historically there
have actually in some ways increased numerically since February
11th, since the change of government.
We've received reports of at least 67 people killed in
religious clashes, most of them Coptic Christians. This brings
the total number of reported deaths this year to more than 90.
There have been at least six reported major attacks of violence
against the Copts. I list them all in my testimony but I just
want to mention two.
On September 30th, in the Merinab village in Aswan, an
estimated crowd of 3,000 Muslims looted and burned the St.
George Coptic Orthodox Church in addition to some Copt-owned
homes and businesses. The status of the investigation in that
case is unclear.
And on October 9th, as you both have mentioned, in Cairo
violence erupted in front of the Egyptian television building
known as the Maspero as a demonstration by Copts protesting the
government's failure to investigate the burning of the church
in Merinab. At least 25 people were killed, more than 300
injured.
In these and other cases, we have made clear our deep
concern about the violence against the Coptic community and the
need for accountability. On October 11th, Secretary Clinton
called for an immediate, credible, transparent investigation of
all those who were responsible for the Maspero violence with
full due process of law.
The White House issued a similar statement urging Egyptians
to move forward to forge a strong and united Egypt, reaffirming
our belief in religious minorities. In raising our concerns, we
are aware that the government of Egypt is doing some things and
I want to point them out. They have in fact initiated two
investigations in response to the Maspero violence.
The first is an Egyptian armed forces review of the conduct
of the military police. As you've indicated, the military
police according to eyewitnesses and video evidence ran over
and shot at demonstrators. Separately, military prosecutors are
investigating about 30 demonstrators, including one prominent
blogger, who were detained during the violence. They're accused
of inciting violence and attacking security forces.
During the height of the clashes--and this is something I
want to emphasize as well--one of the state TV anchors called
on honorable Egyptians to defend the army against attacks by
violent demonstrators. Twenty-one prominent Egyptian human
rights organizations have criticized the official media for
what they call their inflammatory role in actually provoking
greater violence.
The Coptic community is as concerned as we are about the
severity and frequency of these attacks. While they recognize,
as we do, that these attacks are not necessarily not the
product of government provocation, they're greatly concerned,
as we are, about the need to hold perpetrators accountable.
I want to make clear that most of the clashes have involved
both Copts and Muslims and members of both communities have
been perpetrators as well as victims. It's also important to
note that many Muslims have stood up to defend members of the
Coptic community against extremist violence.
I want to finish with two other things that the
government's now doing which is important for us to emphasize
and reinforce. One, the government has pledged to adopt a
unified places of worship law which would guarantee all faiths
the ability to construct and maintain places of worship. This
is a debate that's gone on for years. The government--the
Cabinet sent a draft law to the military council in October.
We urge strongly, and we have been in discussion with the
government, the prompt adoption of this provision. That would
send a very strong signal of the government's commitment to
protect religious freedom. And finally, we welcome steps the
government has taken to reduce discrimination in their penal
code.
On October 15th, the SCAF issued a decree amending the
penal code to prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion,
gender, language, faith or race. This provision reinforces and
will give life to Article 7 of the March 31st constitutional
declaration on the same subject. We urge the government to
enforce these provisions and to make nondiscrimination the
order of the day.
Like Egyptian Muslims, Egyptian Copts are concerned about
their country's future. In addition to security from sectarian
violence and equal treatment under the law, they want equal
representation in parliament, a proportional voice on the
committee that will draft the new constitution. The vast
majority of Egyptians support religious freedom and we support
their efforts.
As Secretary Clinton said last week, and I'm quoting here,
``If over time the most powerful political force in Egypt
remains a room full of unelected officials, they will have
planted the seeds for future unrest and Egypt will have missed
an historic opportunity.''
Mr. Chairman, the door for real democratic change is only
beginning to open in Egypt. We hope Egyptians will walk through
it together towards a more peaceful and prosperous future.
Thank you.
Mr. Smith. Secretary Posner, thank you very much for your
testimony. And I'd like to begin with a few questions. The
first would be whether or not you believe and whether or not
the department believes that the Supreme Council of the Armed
Forces deliberately provoked a confrontation with the Coptic
Christian demonstrators on October 9th.
Will they be able to credibly investigate themselves
regarding that incident as they have claimed that they will?
And then what steps do you believe that the government will
take--proactive steps to ensure that those kinds of events
don't happen again?
Sec. Posner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have--we see no
evidence of deliberate provocation. What is of concern and what
I highlighted in the testimony is, one, that there be a real
investigation and accountability for the actions of both the
military police and the security forces. That's the first and
best protection against future acts of violence. There needs to
be a clear demonstration that those responsible will be held
accountable and that the government is fully committed to
investigating these acts. The second--the piece that I talked
about last I think also helps set a climate of tolerance and of
official recognition of the importance of diversity.
The unified law allowing churches and mosques on the same
status and all religions to build religious facilities, to
repair them and the like, that's an important demonstration by
the government that it is operating on the theory that all
religions need to be treated the same, as well as the
provisions in the penal code dealing with discrimination.
So I think those two things together--strong investigation,
prosecution, accountability and affirmative steps by the
government by word and deed that suggests in fact the new Egypt
is one where there is no official discrimination and the
government respects the ability of every religion to practice
freely.
Mr. Smith. If I could, with regards to the investigation,
has the government sought the help of ourselves or any other
international law enforcement asset, whether it be the FBI,
Scotland Yard, any other Arab armed forces network to ensure
that it's aggressive, credible and comprehensive?
You and I both remember that one of those--what helped in
Northern Ireland tremendously was when international
investigators were invited to be--to work in a cooperative way
with the RUC to ensure that acts of violence by the
paramilitaries were investigated properly.
It takes the--I would suggest--the tinge out of whether or
not it's a real investigation or not or whether or not there's
an effort to suppress evidence. Has anything like that
happened? Have they reached out to us or any other country?
Sec. Posner. I'm not aware of any request for our help. I
will say one of the things we are very mindful of and sensitive
to is that both in the political process and in the reform
process these are steps that need to be led and directed by the
Egyptian people themselves. We stand ready, and the government
knows that, to provide assistance as it's useful and necessary.
I know there have been some discussions in a broader sense.
I've been part of some of those discussions with the Ministry
of Interior about ways in which there can be, you know,
enhanced police reform and training. We stand ready to be
helpful. But we are also mindful of the importance that these
reforms need to be initiated by and directed by the government
of Egypt.
Mr. Smith. Do you think we should reach out to them purely
on a technical assistance basis? I mean, some of the very
advanced protocols that our law enforcement people employ
certainly would ensure a more comprehensive investigation. Is
it something you might take back and look and see whether or
not that might be useful?
Sec. Posner. I'm glad to take that back. I had a good
conversation with Ambassador Patterson on Thursday. She is
adept, as good as our diplomatic corps ever produced. She knows
the scene there very well now and is in constant conversation
both with the government and with the SCAF.
And I have every confidence that if there's a way in which
we can be helpful, we will make the government aware of that.
And we certainly--it's not lost on the government of Egypt how
important their next actions are with regard to this attack.
It's gotten a huge amount of attention both here and in Egypt.
And they know well. This hearing is another example of the
extent to which the accountability issue needs to be addressed.
Mr. Smith. Secretary Posner, as you know, immediately prior
to the revolution there was a huge cut in economic assistance
for human rights and democracy building. And laying blame
nowhere, whether it be on Congress or the administration, it
was rather significant. Could you tell us how much U.S.
economic assistance today is directed towards promoting human
rights?
Sec. Posner. Well, as you know, Mr. Chairman, for FY '10 we
undertook to shift some of the economic support funds to
democracy and governance.
And some combination of our offices, the Middle East
partnership--MEPI--and USAID, are now funding a range of
activities--support both for strengthening democratic
processes, training of political parties, voter education, et
cetera, but also working with independent labor unions and
journalists on some of the issues we're discussing today.
The number, I think, is in the vicinity of $50 million for
FY '10. And I think we're--again, this is part of what the
discussion has been internally in our government and with
members of Congress. I think it's important that we now
recognize, and we do, that there are a range of places we can
and should be helping in sustaining and encouraging the
democratic process to go forward.
Mr. Smith. Just two final questions. How does a Coptic
Christian raise a concern with the government and work to
protect their own civil liberties? Who do they go to?
Sec. Posner. Well, I think, you know, one of the--hopefully
one of the signposts for the future will be the election over
the next several months of a new--of a new parliament which
will include members of a new political order who are going to
be more open and responsive to the needs of all Egyptians,
including the Coptic community.
We are certainly encouraging Egyptians of all faiths to
participate actively in these elections which start on November
28th. And I would think that would be the best starting place
for people in the Coptic community and all Egyptians to begin
to use their democratic muscles and raise concerns of their own
communities.
Mr. Smith. But what happens--I was one of those who was
skeptical and I wasn't alone in that, you know, as people were
getting teary-eyed over whether or not this meant real reform
or a further consolidation by groups like the Muslim
Brotherhood.
And I would appreciate your thoughts on the Muslim
Brotherhood, if you would, whether or not perhaps we may as a
government have underestimated their knowledge and appearing to
be more moderate but now are consolidating more power.
And frankly, in terms of election muscle, I mean,
minorities by definition are profoundly disadvantaged which is
why, at least our country and many countries, have very strong
rules protecting minorities.
And I know, you know, there are places that--so many of us
are known as Democrats or Republicans, we run for election, if
we're gerrymandered into a certain area, you know, you could
provide the greatest service imaginable and still not get
elected and still not potentially have your voice heard.
And I think when you're about 10 percent of the population
and there is this governmental or very profound bias against
Coptic Christians, and as you mentioned there are other ethnic
or religious minorities as well, unless you have strong
protections, you know, their disadvantage becomes perhaps even
persecution, which I think is what's happening now.
Dina Guirguis will testify later. And when you answer that,
if you could just respond to this comment because she said, or
will say, one only needs to give a cursory look at SCAF's
history since its assumption of power. Over 12,000 civilians
have been tried in military tribunals that do not meet minimum
standards of due process.
Female protestors have been subjected to degrading
virginity tests. The notorious emergency law has been extended
and numerous laws restricting freedom of assembly and even
criminalizing criticism of the military have been opaquely
passed and enforced in draconian fashion.
And then she goes on, local rights groups have already
decried these abuses even more, including SCAF's pre-election
conduct which observers accurately note portends to substantial
fraud in the upcoming elections where Islamists are expected to
win a substantial parliamentary presence. That paints an
extremely ominous present and certainly a more ominous future.
What's your take on that?
Sec. Posner. You know, I would say having worked in the
human rights field for 30-some years that I'm an eternal
optimist. So take this comment with that in mind. I believe we
are at the beginning of a transition in Egypt. Some might call
it a transition to a transition. I don't think we can expect to
see instantaneously the kind of a democratic foundation laid
that we would all hope and expect to see over time.
Secretary Clinton in her speech last week spoke about this
and I think some of the elements you've raised are exactly the
things we need to be pressing on. We do believe that there
ought to be and needs to be a lifting of the state of
emergency.
We do believe that there needs to be an opening up of the
process for, you know, there to be a real lively debate where
multiple parties are allowed to function freely, where there's
a free press, where state television takes on a more balanced
approach, where religious freedom flourishes. Those things are
going to happen over time if there's a sustained push by
Egyptian people supported by governments like ours.
We don't believe--we don't--what we want to see is that
parties that are committed to rejecting violence, that abide by
the rule of law, that respect freedoms of speech, religion,
association, that respect the rights of women are allowed to
participate.
Our view is if that happens over time we're going to get a
result that we like that's going to lead to a real democratic
transition. We've got to hold our nerve. We've got to stay
involved and engaged. But I think we all understand that there
is a range of challenges that we face in the coming weeks and
months that we need to be attentive to and we need to, at the
same time, be patient and resolute.
Mr. Smith. Is there concern that we might be
underestimating the Muslim Brotherhood?
Sec. Posner. I think we are. Certainly as we watch what is
happening it's clear that the Muslim Brothers are well
organized as a political party and that they will compete
actively and aggressively in the election. Again, the decision
about who to vote for is for the people of Egypt.
Our role and our goal needs to be to promote a long-term
democratic transition that's based on the notion of
strengthening of a political process that's going to lead to a
democratic, freely elected government, a constitution that
supports that and the democratic infrastructure that yields the
kind of result that we're going to be--that Egyptian people are
going to feel proud of and that's going to make them a good and
stable ally.
Mr. Smith. I do have one final question. And that would be
a few months ago Michele Clark, who used to be number two at
ODIHR and you and I did have a conversation about this, as
you'll recall, she testified and said, it's no longer a matter
of allegation that young Coptic teenage girls are abducted. She
said the number was in the thousands.
And when they turn 18, after the kidnapping, they are given
to an Islamic man, a Muslim man who then makes her his wife.
Women are often subjected to a great deal of exploitation,
compounding the original kidnapping itself.
And she even talked about the very awful term that this is
an Islamization of the womb, Islamicizing the womb, that
whatever children she bears will be Muslim, which is an
absolutely outrageous human rights abuse from every way that
it's looked at--the kidnapping, the trafficking, the forced
conversion and then the subsequent forced conversions of any
children born to her in that so-called marriage.
Have you been able to look into that as a bureau? I know
the ambassador--Congressman Wolf took the information from that
hearing and had a meeting in his office and asked her to, you
know, aggressively look into it. Michele said--Clark said that,
you know, we should no longer use the word allegation, that
it's beyond that. She did the investigations herself.
And matter of fact, she said, these reports--this is her
quote from July 22nd here in this room at a Commission hearing:
``These reports are not allegations nor should they be
disputed. Coptic women disappear.
``Coptic women are forcibly converted or converted under
false pretenses. And Coptic women are forcibly married to
Muslim men.'' What is your--what has your investigation or
looks into this discovered?
Sec. Posner. We are--I know that you've raised this and we
had a previous conversation about it. And I have made inquiries
about the particular cases. We have--let me say broadly we
obviously are greatly concerned about the Egyptian government's
failure to allow conversion of Muslims to Christianity and the
various measures, coercive measures or discriminatory measures
against those who seek to express their religious faith.
The particular cases that she raised, we have not been able
to substantiate the facts, although I'd be willing or people in
our office would be willing to meet with her.
But we are concerned about the broader phenomenon of the
kind of coercive or discriminatory measures against people who
are either trying to convert from Islam to Christianity, which
the government doesn't recognize, or the kinds of coercive
things that she raises. Again, the particular cases I can't
speak to.
Mr. Smith. If you could--
Sec. Posner. But if--
Mr. Smith. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Secretary. If you could, how
robustly have we tried to substantiate--have foreign service
officers or human rights officers gone into the field? Have
they done extensive interviews to determine whether or not this
is a barbaric phenomenon that's ongoing?
Sec. Posner. We have made inquiries through the embassy.
And what I can do and I will do and I promise to do is go back.
I'd actually like to get a hold of her testimony and maybe have
people in our office talk to her and then we can look at the
specific cases that she raises. And we'd be glad to look at it
in more detail.
Mr. Smith. So just to be clear, have any of our human
rights investigators gone out and done any first-person
reporting on this?
Sec. Posner. Well, I think you and others have said this is
a phenomenon and the cases that have come to our attention we
have gone to look to see if can we we can verify the facts. We
haven't been able to do that. But that doesn't mean it's not
happening.
So what I would suggest is let me take a look at the
testimony that she gave to you. If there are particular cases
and facts, we welcome getting them. And then we will--I will
endeavor to make sure that either people in my office or people
in the embassy follow up and they get to the bottom of what's
happening in those cases.
Mr. Smith. If you could, because her testimony was very,
very incisive and outrageous, what she uncovered. I mean, she
even went through how it's often done, the befriending of
Coptic girls by Muslim girls, that it's a process and that it's
just--as well as straight-up, flat-out abductions and all
leading to the same consequence.
Sec. Posner. Right. The thing that would be most helpful to
us is if there are particular cases with facts, et cetera, that
we can then pursue rather than the general pattern.
Mr. Smith. Sure. But if we could also be looking to see on
our own, you know, not just following up on one of her leads
because it would seem to me that, you know, it's like any other
kind of abuse. Unless we're really aggressively looking for it,
it is so easy to conceal this.
And so I'd like to--before I yield to Commissioner Pitts,
you know, Fred Grandy, a former distinguished member of the
House of Representatives, is here. He's executive vice
president of the Center for Security Policy. I want to welcome
our former colleague for joining us today. Thank you--thank him
for his work on Egypt. I'd like to yield to Mr. Pitts.
Mr. Pitts. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Posner, thank
you for your testimony. Do you have or could you provide a list
of the actions such as meetings with advocacy groups, public
statements, conversations with Egyptian officials or activities
at the UN that this administration including the State
Department has taken since January to support the rights of
minorities in Egypt? And if this list is not available today,
could you provide us as list in writing?
Sec. Posner. Sure. You know, there are--you just mentioned
five or six categories of things and we've done--we've taken
actions in all of those areas. I can certainly--I'm not sure I
can present a comprehensive list but I can certainly send you a
representative list of the kinds of discussions we've had with
the government, the kinds of support and discussions we've had
with civil society.
I routinely meet with civil society groups when I'm in
Egypt. It's most of what I do, meet with the government as well
as meet with groups here. So I'd be glad to provide some
representative or illustrative examples of what we're doing. We
take these issues extremely seriously.
This is an extremely important area to Secretary Clinton,
and to me personally. And we're very aware of the precarious
state of the Coptic community. These attacks are very serious
and we want to do whatever we can to put--you know, to make
sure that this kind of violence and discrimination doesn't
continue.
Mr. Pitts. Thank you. What actions has the State Department
taken since the October 9 incident when the military directly
attacked and killed Egyptian citizens? To press the Egyptian
government for a transparent investigation and to press the
Egyptian government to prosecute those who were actually
responsible for the murders of citizens?
Sec. Posner. As I mentioned briefly in my oral comments,
and I think there's a bit more detail in the statement I
submitted, both the president and Secretary Clinton have issued
public statements about the attack. Ambassador Patterson has
been engaged almost on a daily basis since October 9th in
urging and reiterating the importance of there being a strong
investigation and prosecution of those who are involved. We are
very mindful of the potential for there to be an escalation of
violence.
This was a tragic incident where people were killed, many
more injured. And so we have been very, very mindful of it.
I've talked several times to Ambassador Patterson about it and
she is completely aware of all the details. There have been
discussions with the military, discussions with security
forces, ministry of interior and the like. We will continue to
press.
As I said in the testimony, there are two investigations
underway. Investigation doesn't equal results. And so our focus
now is making sure that the people who were involved in these
violent acts are brought to justice, that there are
prosecutions and convictions and that the government is clear
in its public statement and its action that this kind of
violence cannot be countenanced.
Mr. Pitts. We all know that if there are no prosecutions in
relation to these violent acts against minority groups--the
Coptic Christians--then violence is going to continue. Do you
know of any successful prosecutions against violent acts
against Coptic Christians?
Sec. Posner. Yeah. And, you know, again I would come back
first of all to the tragic attacks in Nag Hammadi in January of
2010. I was in Egypt literally two weeks after those people
were gunned down. I met with the ministry--the head of state
security. I met with people in the government to make just the
point you're making.
There has to be a serious investigation that leads to
prosecutions. One of the principal perpetrators was prosecuted
and convicted. Two were acquitted, and as I mentioned in my
testimony, yesterday the government--the court reopened the
case against those two and they will be put on trial before a
military court on December 19th. So that's one example.
There are several others. But we're not satisfied that
enough has been done. And certainly in the case of the October
9th violence, it's critical that there be a full investigation
and prosecution.
Mr. Pitts. Thank you. What role should the United States
play in promoting human rights and religious freedom
specifically? The chairman asked about how much economic
assistance was directed towards promoting human rights. What
kind of things should we be doing specifically to promote these
principles?
Sec. Posner. Well, I think in a broad sense all of the
building blocks of democracy are information and we ought to do
what we can to reinforce that development. There is a lively
civil society in Egypt. But many of the organizations are not
yet able to register. We've raised concerns about that. We need
to be supportive of an independent media.
We need to support bloggers and activists who continue to
raise concerns that are among the issues we're discussing
today. So there are a range of things that I think we've begun
to do and we need to stay on that course. We need to make sure
that there is a move away from a government that relies on an
emergency law, move more towards a civilian rule of law and we
need to support a political process that allows multiple views
by nonviolent people--parties--that respect religious freedom,
freedom of speech, association and the rights of women.
Mr. Pitts. Now, you mentioned earlier the importance of
diversity. How could the authorities involve Islamic and
Christian religious establishments in a strategy to strengthen
this idea of diversity, of values, of religious tolerance and
coexistence?
Sec. Posner. You know this is a process. I think we start
from a premise--I start from a premise that for several decades
institutions of government and nongovernmental institutions
were ossified. They weren't allowed to flourish and operate
openly.
And so when I say we're in the beginning of a transition,
we're at a place where we can encourage but Egyptian people to
have to lead in creating a more open discussion both about
advancing pluralistic democratic political process but as part
of that encouraging diversity of views, diversity of religions,
and a diversity of perspectives as part of that mix.
We take these things for granted in a society where we've
had a lot of experience dealing with it. We're in, in Egypt, in
a very early stage of a transitional process where all of these
elements are still being set up, as it were.
Mr. Pitts. What about training, for instance, for judges,
for prosecutors, for police, teachers, whomever, those who are
responsible for administering and applying the law about
respecting these rights?
Sec. Posner. I think those are critical elements. And those
are very much--
Mr. Pitts. Are we engaged in encouraging that?
Sec. Posner. Absolutely. I mean, there are discussions
going on now between our governments about how can we best
support a transformation, transition in the police. We have--
there's a long history of the police playing a--state security
playing roles that we would consider antithetical to the way in
which we practice democracy.
And so it's important that there be a move towards
professionalizing the police, professionalizing the courts,
creating, as I say, strong civilian institutions that are the
kind of foundation, the basis for a democracy. All of that's on
the table. We're doing training already of some of the
political parties, voter education and all of that.
But democracy isn't just elections. It's also building
those strong institutions--police, prosecutors, courts, the
media. All of those institutions are part of what makes
sustainable democracy real. And we're very much engaged in the
discussion of all those things. Again, I want to say again,
though, we need to take our lead from people of Egypt.
This is their moment of transition and it's critical that
Egyptians lead. We are more than willing--we're eager to be a
strong partner in those efforts. But we've got to come in in a
way that reinforces what Egyptians themselves are demanding and
pursuing.
Mr. Pitts. Thank you. Now, I was a little surprised with
your answer to the chairman about this barbaric practice of
forced, you know, kidnapping and forced conversion, if you
will, forced marriages and conversion of Coptic Christians.
For, you know, 15 years I've talked to people in Egypt who said
this is a common practice. Doesn't the State Department--aren't
they aware of this? Aren't they pursuing this issue?
Sec. Posner. As I said, Congressman, we are very aware of
the discriminatory practices that make it very difficult, for
example, for people to convert from Islam to Christianity. We
are aware of the discrimination and some of the harassment of
the Christian community. That's what this hearing is about. On
the subject of abductions--
Mr. Pitts. And marriage--forced marriage.
Sec. Posner. And forced marriage--the broad allegations are
out there. What we're--what we need and what we're looking for
are specific cases that we can pursue. If we get those cases,
we will pursue them ourselves and raise them with the
government.
We know those allegations are out there but as of this
moment they're not specific cases where we've been able to
substantiate what's been alleged in a broad sense. I'm not
saying it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is the more
information we get, I am very open--in fact eager--to get
information about specific cases that we can then examine
ourselves and take to the government of Egypt.
Mr. Smith. Would my friend yield?
Mr. Pitts. Yes.
Mr. Smith. My concern is that we're not even looking and
not looking--I mean, this isn't something that's going to walk
up and say, here's a forced marriage.
Because of retaliation, because of the killing of the young
woman or the fact that in many cases she feels that she cannot
go back to her Coptic family and all the other reasons, this is
something that very aggressively, if not and covertly probably,
has to be looked at which is why human rights investigators--I
mean, I would hope there would be no takeaway for the Egyptian
government and somehow our government in saying it has not been
substantiated.
I believe that the evidence is compelling. It awaits
further investigation. But we need to be, I think, as
aggressive as all get out. I mean, you know, anyone who--any
daughter, any young woman to be abducted and forced into what I
really believe is sexual slavery and to lose her faith and her
life and to be forcibly married through some level and degree
of coercion is among the worst human rights abuses I can
possibly think of.
So I would hope the takeaway would be to deploy our Foreign
Service or human rights officers and to do a major study on
this, to initiate something that is--that leaves no stone
unturned. And we need to bring this up in every possible forum
with the SCAF and every other official in Egypt.
Sec. Posner. Congressman, we will--I share the concern. We
will--I will make sure--I will redouble our efforts with our
embassy to make sure they are pursuing this subject in the way
that you suggest. It would also help us if there are particular
cases that come to your attention. That makes it easier for us
to pursue this in a more concrete way.
Mr. Pitts. Yeah, I thank you for that. I know that is a
desire. But you have to also keep in mind you don't want to
jeopardize the lives, the safety of the families, the women,
you know, who are involved in this horrific practice. But thank
you very much. We appreciate your willingness to look into
that.
Mr. Smith. Commissioner Pitts, thank you very much. And I'd
just like to ask one final question, Mr. Secretary.
Sec. Posner. Sure.
Mr. Smith. And in a way, we've talked about it but just to
get your reaction to this statement by Dr. Michele Dunne from
the Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East of the Atlantic
Council. In her testimony, she'll say, the SCAF approach has
been almost identical to that of the Mubarak era.
That is, after each sectarian incident the authorities
promise to investigate and prosecute crimes vigorously and to
address the underlying causes of the incident such as
discriminatory laws regarding the building and the alteration
of places of worship. But as soon as public attention moves on,
such efforts are either abandoned or long delayed, leaving the
victims with a sense of injustice and the perpetrators with a
sense of impunity, and sowing the seeds of further violence.
In cases where military government or government officials
are accused of complicity in violence or at least
irresponsibility in dealing with it, the SCAF has staunchly
resisted accountability. Is that a true statement or a false
statement?
Sec. Posner. Well, I think I would answer that by saying we
are now at a critical moment following the October 9th
violence. And what I've said here and what I think this hearing
has helped us amplify is the need, one, for accountability.
There are two investigations going on. It's important that you
and we stay the course in monitoring the progress of those
investigations.
And the other piece is the government's stronger commitment
to adopt a unified law of construction of new religious sites,
repairs, et cetera and to amend the penal code in a way that
fights discrimination in a more particular way. I want to leave
this hearing with a the sense that these are priorities for the
United States.
I think it's great that you've had this hearing. It helps
draw attention to these issues. And there should be no doubt in
anybody's mind that we are highly attentive to the need for
accountability and for affirmative expressions by the
government of their desire to end practices of discrimination.
Mr. Smith. We're joined by Gus Bilirakis from Florida. Mr.
Bilirakis, do you have any statements or comments you'd like to
make?
Mr. Bilirakis. I do have a statement, if that's all right?
Mr. Smith. Absolutely.
HON. GUS BILIRAKIS (R-12), A MEMBER OF CONGRESS FROM THE STATE
OF FLORIDA
Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you. But anyway, I'm sorry that I'm
late. I commend, of course, Chairman Smith and Chairman
McGovern for holding this very important hearing. I've been
heartsick over recent tragic events that have taken place in
Egypt against the Coptic Christians. It is devastating what is
happening to them under the current military regime in Egypt.
The United States should contemplate defunding the Egyptian
military until they can guarantee the religious freedom of all
minority faiths, specifically the Coptic Christians. Christians
are dying or being displaced as we speak. Perpetuating
religious freedom for all minority religions, and especially
Christians, in the Middle East will continue to be a top
priority of mine.
I look forward to meeting with your brothers and sisters
here in faith later this week and I have some constituents
coming up, Mr. Speaker, as well. But we need to do everything
we can on behalf of religious freedom throughout the world,
particularly in the Middle East. Thank you very much for giving
me the opportunity.
Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I appreciate you being here.
Thank you for your testimony. We're having a little trouble
with the microphone. I apologize. And then I'd like to
introduce the next panel.
Mr. Smith. Thank you very much.
Mr. Bilirakis. OK, I'd like to introduce the second panel.
Welcome. First, we have Dina Guirguis--I hope I pronounced that
correctly. She's an Egyptian-American democracy activist and
attorney and member of the Egyptian-American Rule of Law
Association.
Formerly, she was the Keston Family research fellow in The
Washington Institute for Near East Policy's Project Fikra. She
founded and was editor of a near real-time Arabic English blog
called Fikra Forum, connecting Arab activists with U.S.
policymakers on issues of regional political reform.
Prior to joining the institute, Ms. Guirguis was the
executive director of Voices for Democratic Egypt. She holds a
J.D. from Vanderbilt University Law School. Welcome.
Next, we have Samuel Tadros. Samuel is a research fellow
with the Center for Religious Freedom aT the Hudson Institute.
Before joining Hudson in 2011, Mr. Tadros was a senior partner
at the Egyptian Union of Liberal Youth, an organization that
aims to spread the ideas of classical liberalism in Egypt.
He previously interned at the American Enterprise Institute
and worked as a consultant for both the Hudson Institute on
moderate Islamic thinkers and the Heritage Foundation on
religious freedom in Egypt. He holds a master's degree from
Georgetown University.
Next, we have Michele Dunne. She is the director of the
Atlantic Council Rafik--I don't know if I'm pronouncing this
right--but Rafik Hariri Center for the Middle East. Dr. Dunne
has served in the White House on the National Security Council
staff, on the State Department's policy planning staff and its
bureau of intelligence and research and was a diplomat in Cairo
and Jerusalem.
Prior to joining the Atlantic Council, she was a senior
associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
where she edited the Arab Reform Bulletin and carried out
research on Arab politics and U.S. policies. She holds a
doctorate in Arabic language and linguistics from Georgetown
University. Welcome.
And now we'll begin the testimony. Ms. Guirguis, you're
recognized for five minutes. Thank you.
DINA GUIRGUIS, EGYPTIAN AMERICAN RULE OF LAW ASSOCIATION
Ms. Guirguis. Thank you. Good afternoon. Can you hear me?
Can you hear me now? Great. Good afternoon and thank you to
Chairman Smith for organizing this timely hearing. Thank you,
Congressman Bilirakis. I'm especially pleased to have the
opportunity to give testimony on Egypt's not only continuing,
but growing, sectarian problem. I would even characterize it as
a crisis at this point.
To begin with: If I die, take me to Tahrir. These were the
last words uttered by Mina Daniel, a young man in Maspero who
eventually succumbed to a sniper bullet that entered his chest
and exited through his lower back on October 9th, which has
come to be known as ``Bloody Sunday.'' Mina's story is only the
most recent example of the plight of Egypt's Christians, a
tragic manifestation of Egypt's sectarian crisis, a matter in
which I testified earlier this year in January.
At that time, I began my testimony by quoting 22-year-old
Miriam Fekry, who had posted a New Year's prayer for 2011 on
her Facebook page, just hours before she was killed in a
heinous attack on the Two Saints Church in Alexandria on New
Year's eve which left at least 21 people dead.
Then, I stated that Miriam's hopes, and ultimate fate, and
now joining her, Mina Daniel's, even after Egypt's promising
revolution, so tragically and poignantly illustrated the plight
of the Coptic people, Egypt's native Christians, who represent
10 to 15 percent of Egypt's 83 million people. I stated that
while the Copts are the Middle East's largest Christian
minority, they have faced an alarming escalation of violence as
state protection has dwindled.
I explained that for at least three decades, we, the Copts,
have been offered an authoritarian compact of sorts. The Copts,
as all Egyptians, were to live under a draconian emergency law
suspending basic constitutional protections, in exchange for
the delivery of stability and protection from terrorism.
In those three decades, however, Egypt failed to make
adequate progress on key developmental indicators, and Egypt's
human rights record fared no better. Egypt's record on
religious freedom went from bad to worse, placing it on the
U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom's watch list
since 2002.
After Egypt's revolution, the Commission recommended, for
the first time, the further downgrade of Egypt's status,
designating Egypt as a, quote, ``country of particular
concern,'' or, for the CPC, quote, ``engaging in and tolerating
egregious violations of freedom of religion or belief.''
While religious freedom conditions in Egypt had been
deteriorating during the last years of the Mubarak regime, the
Commission stated, ``since Mubarak's ouster on February 11th,
conditions have further deteriorated,'' end quote. In the
Commission's view, this deterioration has warranted Egypt's
ranking alongside China, Iran and Afghanistan.
I last testified on Egypt's sectarian problem on January
20th, only five days before the Egyptian revolution broke out.
Back then, I described the authoritarian pact offered by the
Mubarak regime as an illusory Faustian bargain. I argued the
real answer to Egypt's sectarian crisis is progress toward a
democratic state that respects human rights, applies the rule
of law and extends equal constitutional protections to all
citizens.
I also noted that the Egyptian regime will avoid doing so
at all costs. But we soon learned that Egyptians' frustration
with decades of tyranny could not be indefinitely contained,
and on January 25th, Egyptians of all stripes took to the
streets to demonstrate precisely that.
Somewhat cautiously, Christians regarded the revolution as
a potential turning point and joined their fellow Muslim
citizens in demanding fundamental change which they hoped would
entail a new Egypt based on principles of equal citizenship,
rule of law and individual freedoms. Instead, Egypt's current
trajectory highlights not just substantial challenges to
democratic transition, but the absence of political will from
the current military regime to affect that transformation.
In the process, Egypt's vulnerable groups, including the
Copts, women and others, are more susceptible than ever to
unprecedented violence and insecurity. In 2011 alone, Copts
have been the target of 33 sectarian attacks, 12 of which
involved an attack on a church. The combined casualties, even
before the latest Maspero massacre, include 72 dead, as well as
a substantial number of Christian homes, property and churches
destroyed.
With the Maspero massacre, the death toll rises to 97, and
the number of those injured exceeds 400. Compared to 2010,
these statistics represent more than a six-fold increase in
Christian casualties in 2011.
While some may blame the revolution for this serious
escalation and praise the relative stability of the Mubarak
days, I submit that the same societal ills, and more
significantly the insidious state role in inciting sectarian
violence, plague Egypt more than ever today.
And that responsibility lies in no small measure squarely
at the foot of the military dictatorship, represented by the
Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, or SCAF, which has adopted
the old authoritarian tactics while proclaiming itself, quote,
``the revolutionary government.''
For decades, the regime encouraged and capitalized on the
growth of a culture of discrimination against religious
minorities, and eventually sectarian crimes became crimes of
impunity. We've already heard about that from Assistant
Secretary Posner. Substituting the extension of the rule of law
and equal protection, the state always insisted on, quote,
``reconciliation sessions,'' where victims and perpetrators
were coerced into extrajudicial settlements by the state
security apparatus.
In March of 2011, after Mubarak's ouster, when a Christian
man had his ear severed by hardline Islamists known as Salafis
in Upper Egypt, SCAF very powerfully conveyed the message of
impunity by forcing the victim, that man, not to bring legal
charges and failing to investigate or bring the perpetrators to
justice.
Perceiving the continuation of the status quo, this and
similar incidents strengthened extremists' convictions that not
only would the state tolerate blatant persecution of Christians
and minorities, but it would do so with a nod and wink for its
own interests, much like the days of the Mubarak era.
Capitalizing on an environment of police absence from
Egyptian streets following the Egyptian revolution--a massive
security failure on the interim government's part which itself
requires investigation and accountability--the Salafis--
hardline Islamists--once again lashed out at Christians in May,
when they accused the Coptic church of holding alleged
Christian converts to Islam against their will.
Incitement by the Salafis in a poor, crowded neighborhood
of Cairo resulted in an all-out war between Muslims and
Christians which lasted for hours, with absolutely no police or
military intervention, leaving 12 dead and two churches burnt
to the ground at the end of the day.
The response of SCAF to the incident was to send in a
Salafi preacher known as Mohamed Hassan to the neighborhood to
pacify the situation. This preacher has long been known for his
incitement against Christians and calls for their second-class
citizenship. He is also the same man that was granted a podium
and allowed by the military regime to preach from Tahrir Square
in the weeks following Mubarak's ouster, where he was given
free rein to express hate speech.
I refer you specifically to this example because I think
Chairman Smith had asked Assistant Secretary Posner whether the
government was in any way involved in provoking sectarian
incidents. And these are some very minor examples and examples
abound.
While the churches were rebuilt, no one was held to account
for the day's heinous violence, and when interviewed about this
in the independent media, SCAF General Hassan El-Reweiny stated
that it was, quote, ``preposterous'' to demand further action
on the matter, including an investigation and arrests, since
the churches were, after all, rebuilt.
Once again, taking their cue from the SCAF's Mubaracist
treatment of Egypt's vicious sectarianism, extremist Muslim
youths in an Upper Egyptian town called Edfu took it upon
themselves in September to destroy a church because it
allegedly lacked the necessary permits, even though the church
was an ancient one and had been operating for years. Rather
than hold the youth to account, the region's governor praised
them.
SCAF subsequently refused an independent commission's
recommendation that the governor be removed. With these
successive tragedies in mind and years of societal intolerance,
institutionalized discrimination and state complicity and
incitement continuing with the SCAF's blessing, Christians took
peacefully to the streets on October 9th, as they had alongside
other Egyptians during the 18-day uprising, to protest the
military regime's denial of basic civil liberties.
Muslim activists and sympathizers joined them in their
call. They were, as we all know now, met with disproportional
violence, culminating in live shootings and the crushing of
unarmed civilians by armored personnel carriers, or APCs.
Meanwhile, the corpses of civilians, most of whom were
Christian, were being taken to hospitals, while Egyptian state
television misrepresented the facts, stating that, quote,
``Coptic gangs,'' had killed three soldiers and were attacking
the military in a manner, quote, ``not even the Israelis would
dare,'' end quote, even going so far as to exhort, quote,
``honorable Egyptians'' to come to the defense of their
military against these elements.
This incitement directly led to vigilante acts--this
incitement directly led to vigilante acts of sectarian violence
in Cairo's streets, where some Muslims sought out Christians--
sought out and targeted Christians for retribution and beatings
or worse.
Unsurprisingly but no less tragically, the SCAF's ensuing
press conference addressing the tragedy blamed the victims and
exhorted Egyptians to, quote, ``put themselves in the place of
the soldier driving the armored--the armored carrier, who was
understandably confused and panicked.''
Adding insult to injury, the SCAF praised the role of
Egyptian state TV and when asked about the names of the alleged
military casualties, refused to release them for, quote,
``security reasons.'' Again, when we're talking about
provocation of the state, this is a very, very blatant example.
Egypt state TV does not act independently of the government.
Thus, in the aftermath of the revolution, the state itself
has continued institutionalized discrimination and encouraged
the growth of a culture of sectarianism and impunity to act on
that sectarianism. During the last days of the Mubarak era, a
Cairo-based human rights organization had described Egypt as a,
quote, ``police state infused increasingly with theocratic
elements.''
I would submit that if you substitute the words ``police
state'' with ``military state,'' this would be an accurate
description of the state of things today. The military regime
continues to count on divide and conquer tactics to consolidate
its power.
It continues to scapegoat the Copts to defect from its own
governance failures. It continues to sow instability and
simultaneously present itself as the sole solution to that
instability, justifying along the way the continuation or
institution of new repressive practices and laws.
One need only give a cursory look at SCAF's history since
its assumption of power. As the chairman quoted, over 12,000
civilians have been tried in military tribunals that do not
meet minimum standards of due process.
Female protesters have been subjected to degrading
virginity tests. The notorious emergency law which Egyptians
were ruled by for three decades and were looking forward its
removal, as soon as Mubarak left, was extended and numerous
laws restricting freedom of assembly and even criminalizing
criticism of the military have been opaquely passed and
enforced in draconian fashion.
Local rights groups are already decrying these abuses and
more, including the SCAF's pre-election conduct which observers
accurately note portends substantial fraud in upcoming
elections where Islamists are expected to win a substantial
parliamentary presence.
This parliament, according to the SCAF's transition plan,
will be responsible for the drafting of Egypt's new
constitution, raising doubts about whether such a document will
embody the aspirations of Egyptians, as expressed through their
revolution, which rejected notions of both autocracy and
theocracy but rather expressed a desire for a civil, meaning
nonmilitary and nonreligious, state.
Attempts by the SCAF to issue, quote, ``guiding
principles'' for the constitution are little comfort. While the
U.S. government may be banking on SCAF to turn Egypt into a
pre-Erdogan Turkish model, what is actually unfolding is more
analogous to models such as the Pakistani one, entailing
greater collusion between military authorities and Islamists at
the expense of all other political forces. This is clearly a
dangerous situation.
Avoiding this outcome requires that the U.S. not fall into
the trap it previously did with Mubarak, placing as it did all
its bets on the authoritarian partner and a police state, which
is what we have today.
This means that the U.S. must insist that its support
during and for Egypt's transition be contingent on a prompt and
genuine democratic transition to a civilian authority which
represents the aspirations of all Egyptians and guarantees the
equal rights of all, starting with the immediate cessation of
sectarian incitement and elimination of all forms of
discrimination.
And including, but not limited to, immediate security
sector reform entailing the prompt return of police to the
streets, the conduct of free and fair and monitored elections,
an inclusive and transparent constitutional drafting process,
the elimination of laws that repress basic rights and the
expansion of the political space to allow a greater role for
civil society, nonreligious political parties and ultimately a
free civilian presidential race which represents a true handoff
of power from the military.
Egypt's civilian president must then go about undoing
decades of the disease of pernicious sectarianism which has
infiltrated society through undertaking substantial legal,
institutional, educational and media reform, all vast tasks
which only a person entrusted and vested with the faith of
Egyptians and the interests of Egypt, and not the interests of
a few privileged generals, could assume.
We owe it to those who sacrificed to herald a new era of
freedom in the Middle East. We owe it to a young Mina Daniel,
who while anticipating being killed by Mubarak's police forces
while camped out in Tahrir Square during Egypt's courageous 18-
day uprising, survived then, only to be massacred a few months
later at the hands of Mubarak's successors, who represent more
of the same. Thank you.
Mr. Smith. Ms. Guirguis, thank you very much for your very
powerful testimony and for previous testimonies you've provided
to this Commission. I'd like to yield to Mr. Aderholt,
distinguished member of this Commission, for any comments he
might have.
HON. ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, COMMISSIONER, COMMISSION ON SECURITY
AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
Mr. Aderholt. Thank you. I came in late so I apologize for
my tardiness. But the--you know, the SCAF is certainly
disconcerting about a lot of the reports that we've heard. But
I guess my question would be just, in your opinion do you think
that they have deliberately provoked confrontation with Coptic
Christians, basically going back to that date of October 9th?
Ms. Guirguis. This question is directed at me, I assume?
OK, just didn't--the specific events in terms of who started
shooting when and where are still being parsed out. And I
suspect that will remain unclear for some time given that the
military has undertaken to investigate itself whereas it is the
accused party in all of this, which truly undermines the
independence of any such investigation.
What is clear, however, is one thing, which is the
incitement of the state or official TV on that day. I, as most
Egyptians living abroad, was glued to Egyptian TV on that day
and following the independent media as well. And the vast
differences in reporting were quite stunning. As I stated
before, official Egyptian TV can never act independently, would
certainly never release numbers of military causalities and
actually name an aggressor party without direct orders from the
SCAF.
In fact, after the incident when there was a lot of
criticism regarding the conduct of the official media in
covering the massacre, a group of anchors that were working for
official TV resigned in protest. And they explicitly in their
statement stated that they had received explicit orders from
the SCAF in terms of what to report and how to report that
incident.
And as I mentioned, the reporting led to direct violence.
And as a lawyer, I can tell you that this rises to the level of
criminal incitement, which is--should be punishable by law. So
clearly in that instance, the instance of the incitement of the
official media, the SCAF can be the only responsible party.
Mr. Aderholt. OK, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I
may have some more questions after the rest of the testimony.
Thank you.
Mr. Smith. Mr. Aderholt, thank you so very much. I'd like
to now recognize for purposes of receiving his testimony,
Samuel Tadros, research fellow, Hudson Institute Center for
Religious Freedom. Please proceed as you would like.
SAMUEL TADROS, RESEARCH FELLOW, CENTER FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM,
HUDSON INSTITUTE
Mr. Tadros. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding
this timely and important hearing and for inviting me to
testify today on the plight of Egypt's Christians and what it
signifies for the prospects of a democratic transition in
Egypt.
The title of today's hearing suggests a correlation and a
linkage between religious freedom, or more precisely the lack
thereof, and democracy and the prospects of a democratic Egypt.
Unfortunately, for many policymakers, this linkage has been
absent. The modern debasement of the concept of a free society
to essentially mean the holding of elections has led to people
ignoring the religious freedom as a foundation for a truly free
society.
The recent massacre of Copts while significant in terms of
the number of people that were killed has to be viewed as part
of an ongoing pattern that has taken its effect for many years.
That pattern is a continuation of events and attacks that had
been conducted during the Mubarak regime and before that and
continued after the revolution. The three main parties that
influence and take part in this pattern of discrimination are
the Islamists, the Egyptian government and the general
population.
Instead of naming the specific incidents that my colleague
has mentioned, I think it's important to look at how those
three elements work together to create this culture of
intolerance and attacks on Christians. The first party in that
regard, the Islamists, have conducted numerous attacks on
Christians. We've seen a number of those attacks, most recently
before the revolution, the Alexandria church bombing on New
Year's Eve.
The state, for its part, has a number of very
discriminatory laws against Christians, limiting the number of
Christians in government service and putting restrictions on
the building of churches.
On the other hand, the government also participates in
encouraging this culture through its impunity that it provides
to the people conducting the attacks. The undersecretary
mentioned the latest incident where someone was, for the first
time, punished for one of those incidents in the Nag Hammadi
attack.
Unfortunately, this is the first time that such action is
taken. We've seen a long number--a long list of attacks where
no one has ever been punished for them, creating the impression
that attacking Christians was unpunishable and encouraged.
The third element, and the most problematic for the future
of Christians in Egypt, is the general intolerance amongst
their Muslim countrymen. This increase in number of attacks by
ordinary Muslims encouraged at certain moments by Islamists,
whether the Salafis or others, or driven by their own feelings
of--or their opinions about Copts, this number of attacks has
been very problematic.
If we can think that the government can be stopped or
restrained by certain actions, that the U.S. can take or
pressure applied, if we can think that the Islamists can be
contained somehow, it is the fact of being attacked by one's
neighbors that is very problematic for the future of Christians
in the Middle East.
As Egyptians took to the streets in January and February,
there were huge hopes that this was about to change. Powerful
images of Christians and Muslims praying together and
protesting together in Tahrir Square led to this belief that
democracy would bring with it religious freedom. Unfortunately,
reality has started to hit very soon.
We've seen a continuation and an increase in--substantial
increase in the number of attacks and the continuation of those
patterns that we had witnessed before the revolution. The
Islamists, now emboldened by the complete lack of control with
the absence of the state security, have now started to take
more drastic attacks against the Copts, whether in terms of
attacks on specific Coptic churches or attacks generally in
their TV channels on Copts and inciting people to act against
them.
The government, for its part, has not taken any action to
stop this and has not punished anyone for those attacks. Again,
as was mentioned, while the government--the Supreme Council of
the Armed Forces--has built that one church that was burned in
Otabia [ph] to the south of Cairo, they have not punished
anyone for that specific attack.
They have also not, until this moment, although the trial
has been ongoing, offered any speedy trial for the people that
have conducted the Imbaba attacks. As was mentioned also, they
have continued to hold this pattern of reconciliation meetings
whereby Christians and Muslims are expected to kiss each other
and that would be the end of the affair.
Those reconciliation councils have encouraged again this
feeling that the local Muslim population can then put its
demands on its Christian neighbors. The last element is that
ongoing sectarian increase or the intolerance increase among
the general Muslim population. We've seen a number of incidents
where Christian girls are required to wear the hijab by
government-appointed headmasters in schools.
It was mentioned by the distinguished member before, during
the opening remarks, the very disturbing incident of Ayman
Nabil Labib, a 17-year-old kid--student in the school in Egypt,
being killed by his very own colleagues and students in his
classroom. The increased level of attacks by the ordinary
Muslim population is the most alarming factor for the future.
Again, governments can be restrained and pressured.
Islamists can be contained. This level of intolerance is the
most drastic element in the whole process. Those--we also see a
continuation in terms of the government arresting a number of
Christians and holding them as a bargaining chip with the
church leadership where the pope and the various bishops are
pressured to agree to the government's lack of action in
exchange for getting their members out of the Egyptian jails.
This pattern of arresting a number of Christians--we've
seen it again with the Maspero incident, with around 25
Christians arrested and that remain in jail as we speak today.
This level has--this increased level has raised the question
for Christians, not whether Egypt that might be democratic in
its future or might not, but whether Egypt will be a place for
its Christian minority.
Like their Jewish counterparts years ago, 60, 70 years ago,
they are beginning to realize that their countries might be a
place that is not welcoming for them anymore. Unfortunately,
unlike the Jews who had a place to go to, these people do not.
The facts of demography and geography pose limitations on any
attempt to provide safe havens or any other such notions.
The remaining prospect of immigration is problematic in and
of itself. While we've seen waves of immigration before of
Iraqi Christians and perhaps in the future Syrian ones, the
numbers that are involved in Egypt are much larger. Simply put,
neither the West nor anywhere in the region is a good place for
8 to 10 million refugees.
This, again, creates the problem that while the richest
elements of the Coptic community might be willing and capable
of leaving the country, the poorest ones, the ones that face
daily discrimination in their lives, will not find a place to
go and will be living under this, what is becoming a very, very
cold and long winter.
For those that are concerned with Egypt's future, it is
also becoming very clear that elections will not provide a
solution to religious freedom. I do not have a crystal ball but
I am willing to predict that the Muslim Brotherhood will win a
majority in the next Egyptian elections. This will change a
culture of impunity into a culture of encouragement, whether by
the Muslim Brotherhood or the more extremist Salafi groups.
The prospects for the Christians in Egypt are becoming
darker. Egypt remains a key ally and friend of the United
States and cooperation between the two countries takes place on
various issues, most importantly the military.
However, the prospect of a democratic Egypt and one that is
based on religious freedom is important to the U.S. national
security and will have its effects on that cooperation with
Egypt in the long-term. I have a number of policy
recommendations or comments in that regard. I perhaps believe
that might be better left to questions, or should I continue?
Mr. Smith. Sure.
Mr. Tadros. The first element that we should understand is
punishment for those that have conducted those attacks. There
has been a good development in that regard last week with the
military judges announcing for the first time that there are
military personnel that have been arrested and will be tried
for the Maspero attack.
This is the first time that the military actually
acknowledges, even unofficially, that they did something wrong
during that attack. An encouragement for that process to
continue and for punishment to be provided for those
responsible is something that the U.S. should work on.
Secondly, we understand now that the Muslim Brotherhood
will take a majority in the next parliament and the Christians
will continue to be underrepresented. We must make sure that
underrepresentation in terms of electoral votes does not result
in underrepresentation in terms of the writing of the
constitution.
Making sure that the next Egyptian constitution will be one
that protects religious freedom and provides equal citizenship
for all of Egypt's people is something that we need to
definitely work on.
Thirdly, while the wrong electoral timetable that the SCAF
has suggested, provides us with an understanding that they will
remain involved in running, ruling and governing the country.
With the collapse of the police force, it is likely that the
army will continue to provide basic law and order services in
Egypt for some time in the future.
The U.S. military has built a tremendous cooperation with
the military and the U.S. military provides trainings for the
Egyptian army on a variety of issues including trainings on
basic law and order which the U.S. has perfected in conflict
zones--in various conflict zones. This should be something that
the U.S. can help the army deal with better.
Fourthly, while the U.S. Department of State and USAID and
MEPI have provided a variety of funding to strengthen democracy
in Egypt, there have been very disturbing reports of a lot of
this money, or at least some, going to Islamist parties whose
commitment to religious freedom is, to say the least,
questionable.
Making sure that religious freedom is one of the key
elements whereby those seeking help, those groups and parties
seeking help are recognized and judged upon is an important
step.
Lastly, this money is being provided in order to strengthen
various groups looking for having a sounder or voice in their
country's future. As a minority, the Copts are facing numerous
challenging--challenges in organizing themselves.
Whether any of that money provided by State goes
specifically to minority groups to help them, like other
Egyptians, to organize themselves and bring their voices to
building their country's future is something that needs to be
looked into. Again, thank you very much for organizing this
session and inviting me to testify. Thank you.
Mr. Smith. Mr. Tadros, thank you very much for your
testimony, for your incisive analysis of the current, near-term
and long-term situation and your policy recommendations, which
will be most helpful going forward. Dr. Dunne, if you would
proceed?
DR. MICHELE DUNNE, DIRECTOR, RAFIK HARIRI CENTER FOR THE MIDDLE
EAST, ATLANTIC COUNCIL
Dr. Dunne. Mr. Chairman, distinguished members, thank you
for the honor of testifying before the Commission. As you noted
in your opening statement, Mr. Chairman, it is quite
disappointing that the unity between Muslims and Christians
that we saw in Tahrir Square just earlier this year has
deteriorated and sectarian tensions have escalated dangerously
in the intervening months.
But the violence is not, unfortunately, particularly
surprising because it's expected in a post-revolutionary
climate that the tensions and conflicts that were beneath the
surface are going to emerge more openly. And these sectarian
tensions--sectarian tensions have been present for decades.
But it was noticeable for the last couple of years that
they were--that they were rising and especially in the months
leading up to the January revolution, the attack on the church
in Alexandria at the beginning of January has been mentioned a
number of times. And even leading up to that, there were a
number of anti-Christian riots, particularly by Salafi Muslim
groups that have become much more active in Egypt in the last
couple of years.
And I would suggest that the increasing activity of these
Salafi groups is one of the reasons why we have seen these kind
of tensions and anti-Christian violence on the rise.
Now, these clear and disturbing trends that were apparent
even before the revolution make it all the more difficult to
understand why the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, the
SCAF, that was entrusted by Egyptians with the authority upon
the forced resignation for former president Mubarak has failed
to address sectarian violence in any effective manner.
The SCAF's approach has been almost identical to that of
the Mubarak era; that is, after each sectarian incident, the
authorities promise to investigate and prosecute crimes
vigorously and to address the underlying causes of the incident
such as discriminatory laws.
But as soon as public attention moves on, such efforts are
either abandoned or long delayed, leaving the victims with a
sense of injustice and the perpetrators with a sense of
impunity and sowing the seeds of further violence.
As has already been noted during this hearing, the
investigations of several serious incidents of large-scale
anti-Christian violence leading to the deaths of almost a
hundred people and the injuries of hundreds more are ongoing.
And they might well be inconclusive if we look at what has
happened in previous instances going back even to the al-Kush
massacre a decade ago.
What typically happens in these events is that the
investigations are botched, either deliberately or through
negligence, and there is very little, if any, effective
prosecution after the fact. And in the case where military or
government officials are--I'm sorry--accused of complicity or
at least irresponsibility, and also today we've discussed this
October 9th incident in Maspero extensively.
The SCAF has staunchly resisted accountability. I would
note that the SCAF's seeming inability to carry out these
investigations and prosecutions in an expeditious fashion
contrast very much with their speed in prosecuting bloggers and
others who are critical of the military.
Also, I will skip through this but the transitional
authority supervised by the SCAF also has been very slow to
make the promised legal changes, especially these laws
regarding the building and renovation of places of worship
which over and over again for years and decades now have been
at the root at some of the sectarian tensions.
Now, anti-Christian violence is one of several serious
Egyptian issues that the SCAF has shown itself to be unwilling
or unable to deal with. Others include rising crime, lack of
needed police reforms and a deteriorating economy. As a
military organization, the SCAF is not equipped to address such
issues. And it shouldn't be called upon to do so, particularly
for a prolonged period.
That's why it's essential that the SCAF agree to a clear,
realistic timetable to turn over not only legislative but also
executive authority to elected civilians. The problem right now
is that the SCAF is trying to postpone the transfer of
executive authority until it secures guarantees of its status
post-elections.
And the status the military is seeking is not simply a
continuation of the extensive political influence and economic
perquisites it enjoyed during the Mubarak era but actually more
than that. The SCAF has sponsored a document of super-
constitutional principles that would give it the implicit right
to intervene in politics and the explicit right to overrule
legislation as well as freedom from civilian supervision or
budgetary oversight.
What this would produce, as Ms. Guirguis noted, is a
political system similar to that of Pakistan where elected
civilian institutions are relatively powerless while unelected
and unaccountable military and intelligence services actually
run the country.
And as we know from Pakistan as well as from Egypt's own
history and current situation, in that kind of a system,
military and intelligence organizations often manipulate
sectarian tensions and extremist tendencies within the country
in order to serve narrow agendas.
That would be a very unhappy outcome of the January 25th
revolution for all Egyptians, including Egyptian Christians,
and, I would also note, for the United States because the
United States cannot escape partial responsibility for the
actions of the SCAF due to the tens of billions of dollars in
U.S. military assistance that it has provided over the decade
and continues to provide now.
The United States should stand unambiguously on the side of
the development of a real democratic system in which the rights
of all citizens, including the right to religious freedom, will
be protected in a climate of free political competition and the
rule of law. Only in the democratic system will difficult
issues such as anti-Christian violence and discrimination be
able to be addressed openly. This will not happen overnight.
Building a strong Egyptian democracy will be a many-year
project. But it would be a serious mistake to now create large
new obstacles to real democratization by acquiescing to the
expansion and formalization of military control out of fear
that Islamists might gain a plurality or even a majority in the
parliament which will be elected over the next few months.
There are many uncertainties involved when freely elected
civilian institutions have real power. But one thing we know
for certain is that military rules--rulers will fail to protect
all citizens and enforce laws without discrimination. Thank you
very much.
Mr. Smith. Dr. Dunne, thank you as well for your excellent
testimony. Let me just begin the questioning. You know, Mr.
Tadros, you mentioned in your testimony that the growing number
of threats is no surprise. The Copts are questioning whether or
not there's a future.
And you said, isolated and ignored by the West, the Copts
can only wonder today whether after 2,000 years the time has
come for them to pack their belongings. If you could--and the
other panelists--speak to the issue of being isolated and
ignored by the West. Does that include the United States?
Have we been--has there been a dereliction on our part, our
duty to promote democracy and freedom there? Does that include
the administration, the Obama administration, the U.S. House
and Senate and the EU and others who at least in theory support
democracy? I do believe that our intentions are right. But very
often our intentions are not matched with deeds and with a
seriousness about what the threat actually is.
And your point that a ruler can be bought or constrained by
international pressure but with the mob there are no
constraints--we saw mob rule in history time and time again
played out, and recently in the former Yugoslavia, where
neighbor against neighbor committed unspeakable atrocities
because--not just impunity but because a sense of hatred that
was otherworldly took over.
So I wonder if you might speak to that issue of being
isolated and ignored by the West. How well are we doing? Are we
being serious?
Mr. Tadros. By isolated and ignored, I was referring to
more of a historical story. The first is that Copts were
historically isolated from Western Christendom by theological
differences and were very skeptical about missionaries and what
the West would offer them. The second is their experience under
the British occupation was not a very pleasant one.
Unlike the French and the Levant that favored religious
minorities, the British in Egypt tried to undermine the Copts
and exclude them from government service. Lord Cromer, the
famous ruler of Egypt, was no friend to Copts and had very
harsh opinions about them.
This pattern of lack of a friend in the West as compared to
the Maronite community in Lebanon, for example, has made the
Copts very skeptical about any real offers of help or the
willingness of any Western power to help them.
As to the specific actions of the United States, as the
statement from the president that he made after the Maspero
attack, it's a very disturbing statement to say the least. The
attitude of equating both the victim and the victimizer and
asking both sides to show restraint is, again, very troubling.
One wonders how Copts should show restraint. Restraint from
dying perhaps? One fails to understand the logic behind such
actions.
The president in his Cairo speech mentioned the Copts and
the importance of their plight. But we have not seen any action
in that regard. Again, the very distributing of reports from
Islamist groups and parties getting money from the U.S. State
Department, through its policy of not looking at parties'
ideologies but whether they are committed to nonviolence is
very disturbing and undermines the positions of the Copts in
the country.
So if I am to judge this administration in terms of its
interest and actions, I would view it completely as a failure.
Thank you.
Ms. Guirguis. Sir, I'd like to add to that. Just adding my
voice, the statement indeed after the massacre from the White
House was extremely disappointing. The very notion of equating
victim with aggressor is an insult to unspeakable tragedy
already.
And I think that there has been a little too many U.S.
concessions to the U.S.--to the Egyptian security solution for
the Coptic problem which ruled the day during the Mubarak era
and which continues. It is sort of this blackmailing
relationship where as long as you stay out of our sensitive
files, including our treatment of religious minorities, you
will continue to gain our cooperation on strategic interests.
And I think that that argument has held way too much sway
for way too long. Egypt has its own interests in cooperating
with the United States and they are compelling reasons. And
there is no reason to think that Egypt will run to China
tomorrow and turn away from the United States.
One other comment that I have to make, major
disappointment--SCAF delegations have been coming on a routine
basis since February to visit Washington. They make their
rounds in the Pentagon, on the Hill, at the White House. Only
days after the latest Maspero massacre, there was a new SCAF
delegation that came in town, mostly actually to protest the
attempts at conditioning foreign assistance that the House and
the Senate were attempting to undertake.
Well, who was assisting them in their lobbying efforts?
Well, it's very disappointing for us to discover that CENTCOM
was a part of that lobbying team. I myself have spoken to
Pentagon officials in the aftermath of the Maspero massacre and
the statements that I heard were incredibly disappointing.
I heard and was told directly that the military acted with
restraint, that they were actually pleased that the outcome,
you know, was as it was, that it could have been much worse and
so certainly the military-to-military relationship I think is
really skewing what the larger perspective on all of this
should be and what this entails for U.S. longer term strategic
interests, not just in cooperating with Egypt but in the region
as a whole.
Mr. Smith. Dr. Dunne?
Dr. Dunne. I agree that there has been a tendency on the
side of the U.S. administration to accept the SCAF's--the
SCAF's narrative which is that, you know, we're just simple
military men, we're doing our best, it's a difficult situation.
And remember, it's us or the Islamists. That's your choice.
And that of course is the--you know, is right out of the
old Mubarak playbook. I think though that the actions of the
SCAF recently in, this October 9th Maspero incident and their
absolute failure to accept accountability for that, the super-
constitutional document that I mentioned, the harassment and
persecution of nongovernmental organizations, especially those
receiving assistance from the United States, have really begun
to make people here wake up a little bit as to what the SCAF's
real intentions might be.
So I hope we will not continue to fall victim to this, you
know, binary choice. It's either authoritarianism with all the
ugliness that comes with that or Islamism.
Mr. Smith. In questioning Michael Posner, the assistant
secretary for democracy, human rights and labor, I asked him a
series of questions about Michele Clark's testimony at our
previous hearing.
And he did indicate that he would take it back and
hopefully robustly and very aggressively get the department to
investigate forced marriages of Coptic Christian women and
obviously the abductions that precede the forced marriage. Were
you satisfied with his answers? Any of you--any of you want to
comment on that?
Mr. Tadros. On the specific issue, it's disturbing that
those allegations have been there for a number of years.
They've been reported without comments in the various State
Department-issued religious freedom reports. So it's a bit
surprising that if those have been there why didn't anyone
investigate them before.
The more disturbing elements perhaps in the narrative that
is accepted from SCAF is this issue that the military and the
Egyptian government will pass a new law governing the houses of
worship. I'm not sure if people at State have read that law or
not. But I have, and it in no way supports religious freedom.
The law requires that an area of a minimum of 500 meters be
available between any other religious building or mosque.
I don't know if anyone has visited Cairo, but I doubt there
is any 500 meters between any two mosques in Cairo. So the idea
that this law will somehow help Christians, make it easier for
them to build churches, is debatable to say in the least.
Mr. Smith. Any other witnesses like to respond?
Ms. Guirguis. No, I just--I do agree with that. I don't
think it's a solution at all. I think the bottom line is that
there continues to exist no political will to address the root
causes of this problem.
I think if the sectarian problem of Egypt--I think the
solutions are there. everybody knows them. We've been talking
about them and offering them for years now. They've been on the
books collecting dust in the Egyptian parliament for years now.
But I think if you deprive any authoritarian government of
that card, of the card to manipulate society in that way, to be
able to use the divide-and-conquer card, to be able to sow
instability and create these explosive events and justify their
own existence, I think they would be gone.
And that's the most powerful--in my view, one of the most
powerful sorts of evidentiary proofs there is of the intentions
of the SCAF and what the SCAF actually represents.
Mr. Smith. Other--yes, Dr. Dunne?
Dr. Dunne. I have not seen Ms. Clark's testimony and I
don't know anything about the specific cases that she raised
there. I would say that having looked into some of these cases
in the past--and I would say this is sometime in the past. This
is, you know, 10 years ago or so when I was at the U.S. embassy
in Cairo.
What I found in some of these cases where I was able to
find out what happened was that a member of one religious
community had eloped with a member of another religious
community. And this gets to the problem that religious
conversion and intermarriage are completely unacceptable. And I
believe they're unacceptable to both communities, to both the
Muslim and the Christian communities in Egypt. It is true that
certainly Egyptian law discriminates in favor of the Muslim in
this case, that conversion to Islam is permitted and from Islam
not so much.
But I would say on the level of society, there is a deep
issue here and Dina was just alluding to it, that somehow
cannot be addressed openly in a situation in which you have
authoritarian governments that are manipulating these tensions
for political advantage.
Mr. Smith. Is there anything else any of you would like to
add before we conclude this hearing?
Mr. Tadros. If I can add, going back to the assistant
secretary's statement where he writes on page six: I want to
make clear that most of these clashes have involved both Copts
and Muslims and members of both communities have been the
perpetrators and victims of the violence.
I'm not sure if State Department has seen any evidence of
Copts attacking Muslims. At least I am not aware of any such
incident. So it's a very interesting statement to put, to say
the least.
Mr. Smith. Anything further? Thank you so much for your
testimony. This will be part of an ongoing series of hearings
I've planned in my subcommittee. It's called ``Africa, Global
Health, Global Human Rights,'' sometime in probably January or
February to hold another hearing. And it's my understanding
that the Lantos Commission for human rights might be planning
one as well. While I don't chair it, Frank Wolf does. I am a
member of that and certainly will be at it.
And I think now more than ever we need to bring maximum
scrutiny and I hope for some very wise interventions on the
part of the U.S. government and our European Union friends and
everyone else who is concerned about religious persecution as
well as democracy and good governance because there is a window
of opportunity, it seems to me, and a window that is closing so
fast and things, as you pointed out, Mr. Tadros, that could
get--you know, it won't just be impunity.
It will be--it'll encourage mob action. And in some cases,
they may already be there. So I--and for the record, when a
delegation from Egypt came through and visited members of the
House foreign affairs committee, I did join in meeting with
them and had with me a catalog of human rights abuses directed
against Coptic Christians for which I got--you know, that's
been fixed and that's OK, we're working on that, always some
kind of that's always in the past.
And I certainly was not convinced. And so I hope the wool
is not being pulled over the eyes of the Congress or the
administration. With that, the hearing is adjourned.
[Applause.]
[Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
=======================================================================
Prepared Statements
----------
Prepared Statement of Hon. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman, Commission
on Security and Cooperation in Europe
Good afternoon and welcome to this, our second Helsinki Commission
hearing on the volatile and dangerous situation facing the Coptic
Christians in Egypt following the Arab Spring.
The world watched with great hope and anticipation as events
unfolded in Tahrir Square earlier this year. We saw Christians standing
guard over Muslims during Friday prayers in the middle of the square.
We saw Muslims standing guard over Christians as they celebrated mass
in Tahrir.
While I believe that many of those who came together to forge the
revolution want to continue that solidarity as they support Egypt's
political transition, sadly, there are those who do not. Indeed, the
transition period has seen increasing violence against Coptic
Christians. The current Egyptian government, controlled by the Supreme
Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF), has not adequately responded to
this violence, and as we have seen on video, has perpetrated violence
against Coptic protestors.
On Sunday, October 9, 2011, twenty-seven people were killed and
more than 300 injured in Maspero when the Egyptian military attacked a
peaceful group of Coptic Christians protesting the burning of a church
in Aswan. The protesters were also demanding the removal of the
governor of Aswan, who had justified the mob's destruction of the
church by saying that it had been built without a permit.
In what has been deemed the ``Massacre at Maspero,'' witnesses say
the army fired on the demonstrators with live ammunition and plowed
into the crowd with armored vehicles. Military officers raided and
stopped the live broadcast of two independent news channels that had
been covering the clashes. At the same time, State-run television and
radio reported that the Coptic demonstrators had attacked the military
and called for ``honorable citizens'' to ``defend the army against
attack''-inciting violence against the Coptic minority.
Amid widespread domestic and international outrage over the events,
the White House issued a statement on October 10 saying that: ``The
president is deeply concerned about the violence in Egypt that has led
to a tragic loss of life . . . . Now is the time for restraint on all
sides so that Egyptians can move forward together to forge a strong and
united Egypt.''
With all due respect, the President seems to have completely missed
the point. This is not a situation of equal power and equal
responsibility for violence. This was not a lawless gang clash on the
street, or a mob marauding the streets in the absence of a government.
The Coptic community was protesting the fact that the Egyptian
government in Aswan failed to protect Coptic property and allowed a mob
to burn down the Coptic place of worship.
When Copts called on the military government to treat the Copts as
equal citizens and protect their rights, the government itself turned
on them with a massacre.
How is this government any different from the Mubarak thug regime?
Had this occurred under Mubarak, we would have called for his removal.
This same government is investigating itself for the incident. And
the assault on human rights continues.
In fact, the military has arrested at least 28 people--mostly
Copts--in connection with the clashes, including prominent blogger Alaa
Abdel Fattah. These individuals are being hauled before military
prosecutors.
To date, despite multiple videos and eyewitness accounts showing
the military's use of lethal violence against peaceful protestors, the
Egyptian military has yet to take responsibility for its actions, or
otherwise demonstrate that it will protect all Egyptians, including the
Coptic minority that make up more than 10% of its population.
According to press reports last week, a member of a government-
backed fact-finding committee said that the Egyptian army did not use
live ammunition to disperse protestors during the October 9 incident.
However, Hafez Abu Saeda, a senior figure in the government-
sponsored National Council for Human Rights which set up the committee,
also said that an independent investigation was needed to establish the
full facts and that some state institutions, including the army, did
not cooperate fully with the committee. Rights activists, including the
Arab Network for Human Rights Information and Human Rights Watch, have
criticized the report for a lack of detail.
Tragically, the Massacre at Maspero is not an isolated incident,
but rather a continuation of the endemic discrimination against, and
marginalization of, Coptic Christians in Egypt.
According to the 2010 State Department International Religious
Freedom Report for Egypt:
``The status of respect for religious freedom by the government
remained poor, unchanged from the previous year. Christians and members
of the Baha'i Faith, which the government does not recognize, face
personal and collective discrimination, especially in government
employment and their ability to build, renovate, and repair places of
worship. The government failed to prosecute perpetrators of violence
against Coptic Christians and again failed to redress laws--
particularly laws relating to church construction and renovation--and
governmental practices, especially government hiring that discriminates
against Christians, effectively allowing their discriminatory effects
and their modeling effect on society to become further entrenched.''
The US Commission on International Religious Freedom notes that,
``In response to sectarian violence, Egyptian authorities typically
conduct `reconciliation' sessions between Muslims and Christians as a
means of resolving disputes. In some cases, authorities compel victims
to abandon their claims to legal remedy. The failure to prosecute
perpetrators fosters a climate of impunity.''
A report by the Egyptian Initiative for Human Rights (EIPR)
covering the period from January 2008 to January 2010 documented 53
incidents of sectarian violence-about two incidents per month--that
took place in 17 of Egypt's 29 governorates. Most of the attacks were
by Muslims on Christians and Christian churches or property.
Egypt will not reach its democratic goals through the oppression of
its minority peoples; democracy does not come with an iron fist.
Rather, democracy springs from the belief that all people are created
equal and have the right to participate in their governance. A
legitimate government is of the people, by the people, and for the
people-including minorities. A legitimate government submits to the
rule of law.
The Egyptians demonstrated this belief in Tahrir Square, but seem
to be losing their way-spinning backward into tyrannical abuses of
power.
If there is any hope for a democratic and peaceful Egypt, the Copts
must be allowed to contribute actively to Egyptian society and to the
transformation of their country without fearing for their lives.
In order to further discuss this critical juncture in Egypt's
history, we have with us today a distinguished panel of witnesses who
will help us more fully understand the plight of the Coptic Christians
and what their status portends for peaceful and democratic political
transition in Egypt.
Michael Posner has served as Assistant Secretary of State for the
Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and labor since September 2009. Prior
to joining the State Department, Mr. Posner was the Executive Director
and the President of Human Rights First. He played a key role in
proposing and campaigning for the first U.S. law providing for
political asylum, which became part of the Refugee Act of 1980. Mr.
Posner also has been a prominent voice in support of fair, decent, and
humane working conditions in factories throughout the global supply
chain. Before joining Human Rights First, Mr. Posner was a lawyer in
private practice in Chicago and also lectured at Yale Law School and at
Columbia University Law School. He holds a J.D. from the University of
California, Berkeley Law School and a B.A. with distinction and honors
in history from the University of Michigan.
Dina Guirguis is an Egyptian American democracy activist and
attorney and member of the Egyptian American Rule of Law Association
(EARLA). Formerly, she was the Keston family research fellow in The
Washington Institute for Near East Policy's Project Fikra. She founded
and was editor of a near real time Arabic-English blog called Fikra
Forum connecting Arab activists with U.S. policymakers on issues of
regional political reform. Prior to joining the Institute, Ms. Guirguis
was the executive director of Voices for a Democratic Egypt. She has
been active in the struggle for democracy and human rights in Egypt
beginning with her work at the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development
Studies in Cairo, where she remained until the center's closure by the
Egyptian government in 2000. In the United States, Ms. Guirguis has
practiced criminal and corporate law. She holds a J.D. from Vanderbilt
University Law School and a B.A. from Wellesley College.
Samuel Tadros is a Research Fellow with the Center for Religious
Freedom a the Hudson Institute. Before joining Hudson in 2011, Mr.
Tadros was a Senior Partner at the Egyptian Union of Liberal Youth, and
organization that aims to spread the ideas of classical liberalism in
Egypt. He previously interned at the American enterprise Institute and
worked as a consultant for both the Hudson Institute on Moderate
Islamic Thinkers and the Heritage Foundation on Religious Freedom in
Egypt. In 2007 Mr. Tadros was chosen by the state Department in its
first Leaders for Democracy Fellowship Program in collaboration with
Syracuse University's Maxwell School. He holds an M.A. from Georgetown
University and a BA from the American University in Cairo.
Dr. Michele Dunne is Director of the Atlantic Council's Rafik
Hariri Center for the Middle East. Dr. Dunne has served in the White
House on the National Security Council staff, on the State Department's
Policy Planning staff and in its Bureau of Intelligence and Research,
and as a diplomat in Cairo and Jerusalem. Prior to joining the Atlantic
Council, she was a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for
International Peace, where she edited the Arab Reform Bulletin and
carried out research on Arab politics and U.S. policies. She holds a
doctorate in Arabic language and linguistics from Georgetown
University, where she has served as a visiting professor of Arab
Studies. She co-chairs the Working Group on Egypt, a bipartisan group
of experts established in February 2010 to mobilize U.S. government
attention to the forces of change in that country.
Prepared Statement of Hon. Benjamin L. Cardin, Co-Chairman, Commission
on Security and Cooperation in Europe
I thank Chairman Smith for holding this important and timely
hearing. As the exhilarating events of the Arab Spring move forward
into the reality of day to day transitional governance, election
planning and the challenges of creating participatory democracy, the
principles that sparked the revolutions must not be forgotten. Respect
for the rights of minorities and women, free speech and freedom of
assembly are critical building blocks for open and accountable
governance.
We condemn the violence perpetrated on Coptic Christians during
their peaceful march to Maspero last month. This was certainly not the
first time Copts have experienced violence. The past year has seen
increased attacks on Coptic churches, homes and businesses, and the
people in them. The brutality of the October 9 attacks by the Egyptian
army--the supposed ``protectors of the revolution''--is an outrage.
Even more outrageous, and dangerous in my view, is the army's denial
that they were involved in the killing spree and the current
government's refusal to conduct an independent and transparent
investigation of the events.
I understand that most of the people who have been arrested thus
far in connection with October 9 are Copts and that all will be brought
before military courts. According to yesterday's Washington Post,
Egypt's military has ordered that Alaa Abdel-Fattah, a well known
blogger and leader from Tahrir Square, be held in custody for another
fifteen days. Abdel-Fattah was arrested on October 30 after he refused
to answer questions about his alleged role in the October 9 events. He
has not been charged, denies the allegations against him, and refuses
to speak with military prosecutors because he insists they should have
no role in trying civilians. More than 12,000 Egyptians have been
brought before military tribunals this year--evidence of the dangers of
the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces' (SCAF) continuation of the
decades old emergency law.
Another dark cloud on the horizon of Egypt's political transition
is the SCAF's increasing attacks on Egyptian civil society. The
government has promoted stories in the state-run media accusing
Egyptian NGOs of working on behalf of ``foreign agendas'' and began
investigating them. The government's report on the investigation,
published in September, declared 39 NGOs to be ``illegal,'' including
many of Egypt's oldest and most respected human rights organizations
such as the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, the El-Nadeem
Center for Rehabilitation of Victims of Torture, the Egyptian
Initiative for Personal Rights, and the Hisham Mubarak Law Center.
Substantial public doubt has emerged regarding the capacity of the
SCAF to appropriately manage the political transition following the
January 2011 revolution. The first elections of the post-Mubarak Egypt
are scheduled for November 28. The military's brutal attack on Coptic
Christians last month, its broadening imposition and extension of the
emergency law, and attacks on Egyptian civil society challenges the
notion that the SCAF is incorporating the diverse expectations of the
Egyptian people. Egypt is a Mediterranean partner for Cooperation in
the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and is
expected to aspire toward OSCE norms.
In her recent keynote address at the National Democratic
Institute's 2011 Democracy Awards Dinner, Secretary of State Hillary
Rodham Clinton remarked. ``If-over time-the most powerful political
force in Egypt remains a roomful of unelected officials, they will have
planted the seeds for future unrest, and Egyptians will have missed a
historic opportunity.''
We stand in solidarity with the international community and the
Egyptian people as we urge a return to the principles of tolerance and
pluralism that inspired the movement in Tahrir square. The future of
Egypt rests with a political transition that respects the fundamental
freedoms and the rights of all Egyptians.
I look forward to the testimony of our distinguished witnesses.
Prepared Statement of Michael Posner, Assistant Secretary of State,
Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for conducting this important hearing on
the situation faced by Coptic Christian community in Egypt, and for
inviting me to testify.
As you know, this is a time of substantial transition in Egypt as
Egyptians strive to move their country towards democracy. This is not
an easy process and it will not happen overnight. Egypt is only
starting on a path from the temporary stewardship of the Supreme
Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF), through parliamentary elections
that will begin in two weeks, then the process of drafting of a new
constitution and finally presidential elections. As they move toward
these milestones, millions of Egyptians hope to see the emergence of a
democratic civilian government that respects the universal rights of
all of its citizens.
As part of this vision, it is vital that there be a place in the
new Egypt for all citizens, including all religious minorities, of
which the Coptic Christian community is the largest. President Obama
and Secretary Clinton have made clear their deep concern about violence
against Coptic Christians, most recently during the October 9 tragedy
in front of the Egyptian radio and television building in the Maspiro
area of Cairo. At least 25 people died and more than 300 were injured.
We have urged the Egyptian government to investigate this violence,
including allegations that the military and police used excessive force
that was the cause of most of the demonstrator deaths. We also have
urged that those responsible for these deaths and injuries be held
accountable.
While the focus of my testimony is on the situation of the Copts, I
would like to point out that other religious minorities also suffer
official discrimination. While non-Muslim religious minorities
officially recognized by the government--namely Christians and the tiny
Jewish community--generally worship without harassment, members of the
Bahai Faith, which the government does not recognize, face personal and
collective discrimination. The government also sometimes arrests,
detains, and harasses Muslims such as Shia, Ahmadiya, and Quranist,
converts from Islam to Christianity, and members of other religious
groups, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. The Government
continues to refuse to recognize conversions of Muslims to Christianity
or other religions, which constitutes a prohibition in practice.
I would like to set this testimony on the Copts in a broader
context. Last week Secretary Clinton gave an important policy address
in which she outlined our overall policy on democratization in the
Middle East and beyond. She described the US government's principled
engagement in the Middle East. We support the aspirations of citizens
to live in societies that guarantee freedom, including freedom of
expression, assembly and religion. We also believe strongly in systems
that allow citizens a say in how they are governed and that will
provide economic opportunities for all. These are the demands that we
heard in Tahrir Square, where Copts and Muslims joined hands to protest
and to pray in the weeks leading up to the downfall of the Mubarak
regime. We have heard similar demands echoing throughout the Middle
East and even far beyond that region in the ensuing months.
Secretary Clinton also has spoken out consistently about the
importance of religious freedom and religious tolerance, both of which
are fundamental to human dignity and peaceful transitions to democracy.
Religious freedom is a human right, guaranteed by international human
rights law. At the release of the State Department's report on
International Religious Freedom in September, Secretary Clinton
emphasized the role that religious freedom and tolerance play in
building stable and harmonious societies. She said:
``Hatred and intolerance are destabilizing. When governments
crack down on religious expression, when politicians or public
figures try to use religion as a wedge issue, or when societies
fail to take steps to denounce religious bigotry and curb
discrimination based on religious identity, they embolden
extremists and fuel sectarian strife. And the reverse is also
true: When governments respect religious freedom, when they
work with civil society to promote mutual respect, or when they
prosecute acts of violence against members of religious
minorities, they can help turn down the temperature. They can
foster a public aversion to hateful speech without compromising
the right to free expression. And in doing so, they create a
climate of tolerance that helps make a country more stable,
more secure, and more prosperous.''
This is the basis for our belief that in order to succeed and
prosper, Egypt, and its neighbors, must protect the rights of all
citizens and all minorities, including its Coptic population. The
corollary is also true: successful democratic transitions are the best
way to safeguard those rights.
Mr. Chairman, the Copts in Egypt have faced discrimination for many
years. Christians face personal and collective discrimination,
especially in government employment and the ability to build, renovate,
and repair places of worship.
Although they represent about 10% of the population and play an
important role in Egypt's economy, Copts have suffered from widespread
discrimination and remain underrepresented in prominent positions in
Egyptian politics and society.
The headlines--and the trend lines--continue to tell a disturbing
story.
I was in Egypt just days after the January 2010 attack on the Nag
Hammadi Church in Upper Egypt, when gunmen shot and killed seven people
as worshippers were leaving a midnight Christmas mass. At that time, I
called for an end to impunity for such crimes and full accountability
for those who attacked this holy place. One suspect, Hamam al-Kamouny
was tried under the emergency law in a state security court, convicted
on January 16 and executed on October 10. The other two defendants,
Qoraishi Abul Haggag and Hendawi El-Sayyed, were acquitted by the
court, angering many Coptic activists. Yesterday, November 14, Egypt's
official news agency announced that Abol-Haggag and El-Sayyed are to be
retried on December 19 under the Higher Emergency State Security Court,
for crimes including premeditated murder and terrorism with the use of
force and violence. We applaud the pursuit of accountability in this
case, although we would prefer that these types of crimes be dealt with
in civilian courts with full due process of law.
Almost exactly a year after the Nag Hammadi attack, on January 1,
2011, a bomb exploded at the Coptic Orthodox Church of the Two Saints
in Alexandria, killing 23 people and wounding around 100. There are no
suspects in custody for that crime, although the Government of Egypt
reports that its investigation is ongoing.
These two incidents, and others like them, took place before the
fall of President Mubarak on February 11. We have since received
reports of an increase in sectarian violence and tensions, including at
least 67 people killed in religious clashes--most of them Coptic
Christians. This brings the total number of reported deaths this year
to more than 90. There have been at least six recent major incidents of
violence against Copts:
On February 23, the Army used live ammunition, including
rocket propelled grenades, against unarmed Copts during a land dispute
at a monastery. A monk, one of the six shot, later died. To our
knowledge, no one has been held accountable for these attacks.
On March 4, in the village of Sol, a large group of
Muslim villagers destroyed the Church of Saint Mina and St. George
after the army failed to stop them. To our knowledge, there has been no
investigation and no one has been charged despite videos of the
perpetrators.
On March 8, 13 people were killed when Muslims and Copts
clashed in the Mukkatum area of Cairo. Some of the Copts had been
protesting the slow government response to the destruction of the
church in Sol. One Coptic bishop claimed that though news reports
listed seven Christians and six Muslims. To our knowledge, there has
been no investigation and no one has been charged in the deaths.
On May 8 in Imbaba, a poor neighborhood of Cairo, two
churches were attacked and one burned during sectarian riots. The
clashes resulted in 23 deaths and 232 injuries. That month, the
official media reported that the government referred 48 suspects to
trial. Approximately half of these suspects have been arrested,
including a prominent Salafist leader, while half remain at large. The
High State Security Court in Giza has adjourned the trial until
December 4, when it expects to hear testimony from the remaining
witnesses.
On September 30, in Merinab village in Edfu, Aswan
governorate, an estimated crowd of 3,000 Muslims looted and burned the
St. George Coptic Orthodox Church, in addition to some Copt-owned homes
and businesses, following reported incitement by village imams. Local
media reported that a Ministry of Justice fact-finding committee
traveled to Aswan on October 12, in the aftermath of the Maspiro
violence, to investigate the church burning. The status of this
investigation is unclear.
And finally, on October 9 in Cairo, violence erupted in
front of the Egyptian television building known as Maspiro, at a
demonstration by Copts protesting the government's failure to
investigate the burning of the church in Merinab in Aswan governorate.
At least twenty-five people were killed and more than 300 injured.
On October 11, Secretary Clinton addressed the October 9 violence
at Maspiro and called for an immediate, credible, and transparent
investigation of all who were responsible for the violence, with full
due process of law. The White House issued a statement urging Egyptians
to move forward together to forge a strong and united Egypt and
reaffirming our belief that the rights of minorities--including Copts--
must be respected, and that all people have the universal rights of
peaceful protest and religious freedom.
The government of Egypt has stated publicly that they are
conducting two investigations. The Egyptian Armed Forces are reviewing
the conduct of Military Police, who eyewitnesses and video evidence
suggest ran over and shot at demonstrators. The Ministry of Justice has
been tasked by the Egyptian Cabinet with a full investigation of the
incident. Separately, military prosecutors are investigating about 30
demonstrators, including one prominent blogger, who were detained
during the violence. They are accused of inciting violence, stealing
firearms, and attacking security forces. They will be tried in military
courts.
On November 2, a fact-finding committee established by the National
Council for Human Rights issued an initial report on the Maspiro
violence. (NCHR is a quasi-governmental watchdog body, but the
committee was led by respected human rights advocates). The report
found that the march by Copts and their Muslim allies began peacefully
at Shubra and moved toward Maspiro in downtown Cairo. According to the
report and several corroborating accounts, as the marchers approached
Maspiro, they were attacked by civilians throwing rocks and chanting
Muslim extremist slogans. According to the same sources, military
police then confronted the marchers and attempted to keep them from
reaching the building. The MPs used shields and batons, and fired
blanks. Marchers began fighting back against the violent civilians and
military police. The NCHR report acknowledged that 12 or more civilians
were killed when they were run over by military vehicles. The committee
said it could not determine who fired the bullets that killed at least
seven demonstrators.
During the height of the clashes, state TV anchor Rasha Magdy
called on ``honorable Egyptians'' to defend the Army against ``attacks
by violent demonstrators.'' Twenty-one prominent Egyptian human right
organizations criticized the ``inflammatory role played by the official
state media,'' charging that a ``direct link can be traced between the
outright incitement against demonstrators by state media and the events
at Maspiro.''
On October 13, the head of Egypt's military justice system, Adel
al-Morsi, said that the military would lead the official investigation
into the events. According to Human Rights Watch and local media, the
military has arrested approximately 30 individuals. The government has
said it will try suspects in military courts, since the crimes involved
attacks on military personnel and equipment.
The Coptic community is concerned, as we are, about the severity
and frequency of sectarian attacks against their community, and while
they recognize that the government has nothing to do with most of these
attacks, they are greatly concerned about the need to hold perpetrators
accountable. I want to make clear that most of these clashes have
involved both Copts and Muslims, and members of both communities have
been the perpetrators and victims of the violence. It also is important
to emphasize that many Muslims have stood up to defend members of the
Coptic community against extremist violence.
The United States Government condemns this sectarian violence and
continues to urge the Government of Egypt to take all necessary and
available measures to reduce these tensions.
In raising our concerns about the Coptic community, we are also
aware and very supportive of the positive steps the Egyptian government
has taken on behalf of the Copts. On March 8, by order of the Prime
Minister, Coptic priest Mitaus Wahba was released from prison where he
was serving a five year sentence for officiating at a wedding of a
Christian convert from Islam. On April 14, the SCAF fulfilled its
commitment to rebuild a church in Sol that had been destroyed on March
4 by mob violence. And as I noted earlier, the government also took
steps in response to the May 8 Imbaba violence; in addition to re-
opening dozens of churches, the government is prosecuting 48
individuals charged with murder, attempted murder, and a variety of
other crimes. The trial is scheduled to resume on December 4.
The government also has pledged to adopt a Unified Places of
Worship Law, which would guarantee all faiths the ability to construct
and maintain places of worship. The Cabinet sent the draft law to the
military council in October. We urge the SCAF to endorse this provision
as soon as possible. The Government of Egypt has promised to consider
this measure for several years, including twice in the last five
months. Numerous cases of sectarian violence in recent years have
stemmed from disputes over church construction. The prompt adoption of
this provision now would send a very strong signal of the government's
commitment to protect religious freedom. It would recognize the right
of all Egyptians to freely build places of worship they need to conduct
religious activities. As the government reviews this proposal it should
take into account the concerns expressed over earlier drafts that the
suggested multi-stage process of applying for permits to construct and
repair churches is too convoluted, cedes too much authority to
governors to grant permits, and imposes onerous restrictions on the
number and location of houses of worship.
Finally, in the aftermath of the Maspiro violence, we welcome steps
that are being taken by the Government of Egypt to reduce
discrimination in the penal codes. On October 15, the SCAF issued a
decree amending Egypt's penal code to prohibit discrimination on the
basis of religion, gender, language, faith, or race. The decree also
delineated prison sentences and specific fines for acts of
discrimination, as well as failure to prevent discrimination. These
included more severe penalties for government officials found to be
complicit in discrimination.
The new penal code provisions bolster the Egyptian constitution's
ban on discrimination. Article 7 of the March 31, 2011, constitutional
declaration states that ``all citizens are equal before the law. They
have equal public rights and duties without discrimination on the
grounds of race, ethnic origin, language, religion, or creed.'' We urge
the government to enforce these and other anti-discrimination laws and
hold violators accountable so that all minorities, including Copts, can
enjoy equal protection.
Like Egyptian Muslims, Egyptian Copts are concerned about their
country's future and their own place in it. In addition to security
from sectarian violence and equal treatment under the law, they want
equal representation in parliament and a proportional voice on the
committee that will draft Egypt's new constitution. Like moderate
Egyptian Muslims, the vast majority of whom support religious freedom,
Copts and other religious minorities consider themselves full partners
in a new Egypt.
As Secretary Clinton said last week, ``If--over time--the most
powerful political force in Egypt remains a roomful of unelected
officials, they will have planted the seeds for future unrest, and
Egyptians will have missed a historic opportunity.'' The door to real
democratic change is only beginning to open. We hope Egyptians will
walk through it together to a more peaceful and prosperous future.
Thank you.
____________
Michael H. Posner
Michael H. Posner was sworn in as Assistant Secretary of State for
the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor on September 23, 2009.
Prior to joining State Department, Mr. Posner was the Executive
Director and then President of Human Rights First. As its Executive
Director he helped the organization earn a reputation for leadership in
the areas of refugee protection, advancing a rights-based approach to
national security, challenging crimes against humanity, and combating
discrimination. He has been a frequent public commentator on these and
other issues, and has testified dozens of times before the U.S.
Congress. In January 2006, Mr. Posner stepped down as Executive
Director to become the President of Human Rights First, a position he
held until his appointment as Assistant Secretary.
Mr. Posner played a key role in proposing and campaigning for the
first U.S. law providing for political asylum, which became part of the
Refugee Act of 1980. In 1998, he led the Human Rights First delegation
to the Rome conference at which the statute of the International
Criminal Court (ICC) was adopted.
Mr. Posner also has been a prominent voice in support of fair,
decent, and humane working conditions in factories throughout the
global supply chain. As a member of the White House Apparel Industry
Partnership Task Force, he helped found the Fair Labor Association
(FLA), an organization that brings together corporations, local
leaders, universities, and NGOs to promote corporate accountability for
working conditions in the apparel industry. He also was involved in the
development of the Global Network Initiative, a multi-stakeholder
initiative aimed at promoting free expression and privacy rights on the
internet.
Before joining Human Rights First, Mr. Posner was a lawyer with
Sonnenschein, Nath & Rosenthal in Chicago. He lectured at Yale Law
School from 1981 to 1984, and again in 2009. He was a visiting lecturer
at Columbia University Law School since 1984. A member of the
California Bar and the Illinois Bar, he received his J.D. from the
University of California, Berkeley Law School (Boalt Hall) in 1975, and
a B.A. with distinction and honors in History from the University of
Michigan in 1972.
Prepared Statement of Dina Guirguis, Egyptian American Rule of Law
Association
Good afternoon. Thank you Mr. Chairman for organizing this timely
hearing. I'm especially pleased to have the opportunity to give
testimony on Egypt's not only continuing but growing sectarian problem.
I would like to state that my testimony here today represents my
individual views and not necessarily the views of any organization with
which I'm affiliated, including the Egyptian American Rule of Law
Association (EARLA).
Last time I testified on Egypt's sectarian problem, specifically
the plight of the Copts, Egypt's Christian population, back in January
this year, I began my testimony by quoting 22 year old Mariam Fekry,
who had posted a prayer for a wonderful new year in 2011 on her
facebook page, just hours before she was killed in a heinous attack on
the Saints Church in Alexandria, Egypt on New Year's eve which left 21
dead. When I last testified, I stated that Mariam's hopes, and ultimate
fate, so tragically and poignantly illustrate the plight of the Coptic
people, Egypt's native Christians, who represent 10-15% of Egypt's 83
million people. I stated that while the Copts are the Middle East's
largest Christian minority, they have faced an alarming escalation of
violence as state protection has dwindled.
I explained that for at least three decades, we, the Copts, have
been offered an authoritarian compact of sorts. The Copts, as all
Egyptians, were to live under a draconian emergency law, namely martial
law suspending basic constitutional protections, in exchange for the
delivery of stability and protection from terrorism. In those three
decades, however, Egypt failed to make adequate progress on key
developmental indicators, and Egypt's human rights record fared no
better: Freedom House consistently classified Egypt as ``not free,''
and Egypt's record on religious freedom went from bad to worse, placing
it on the US Commission on International Religious Freedom's (USCIRF's)
``watch list'' since 2002, for ``serious problems of discrimination,
intolerance, and other human rights violations against members of
religious minorities.'' After Egypt's revolution, the commission
recommended, for the first time, the downgrading of Egypt's status,
designating Egypt a ``country of particular concern,'' or CPC, for
``engaging in and tolerating egregious violations of freedom of
religion or belief. While religious freedom conditions in Egypt had
been deteriorating during the last years of the Mubarak regime,''
USCIRF stated, ``since Mubarak's ouster on February 11, conditions have
further deteriorated.'' In USCIRF's view, this deterioration has
warranted Egypt's ranking alongside China, Iran, and Afghanistan.
Last time I testified on Egypt's sectarian problem was January 20,
only 5 days before the revolution broke out. Back then, I had described
the ``authoritarian pact'' offered by the Mubarak regime as an illusory
Faustian bargain, and instead stated that the real answer to Egypt's
sectarian crisis is progress toward a democratic state that respects
human rights, applies the rule of law and extends equal constitutional
protections to all citizens. I also noted that the Egyptian regime will
avoid doing so at all costs. But we soon learned that Egyptians'
frustration with decades of tyranny would and could not be indefinitely
contained, and on January 25, Egyptians of all stripes took to the
streets to determinedly but nonetheless peacefully demonstrate that.
Somewhat cautiously, Christians regarded the revolution as a
potential positive turning point and joined their fellow Muslim
citizens in demanding fundamental change which they hoped would entail
a new Egypt based on principles of equal citizenship, rule of law, and
individual freedoms. Instead, Egypt's current trajectory highlights not
just substantial challenges to democratic transition, but the absence
of political will from the current military de facto regime to affect
that transformation. In the process, Egypt's vulnerable groups are more
susceptible than ever to unprecedented violence and insecurity.
In 2011 alone, Copts have been the target of 33 sectarian attacks,
12 of which involved an attack on a church. The combined casualties,
not counting the latest Maspero massacre, include 72 dead, as well as a
substantial number of Christian homes, property, and churches
destroyed. With the Maspero massacre, the death toll rises to 97, and
the number of those injured exceeds 400. Compared to 2010, these
statistics represent more than a 6 fold increase in Christian
casualties in 2011.
While it may be alluring to blame the revolution for this serious
escalation and praise the relative stability of the Mubarak days, I
submit that the same societal ills and perhaps more significantly the
insidious state role in inciting sectarian violence plague Egypt more
than ever today, and that responsibility lies in no small measure
squarely at the foot of the military dictatorship, represented by the
Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) which has taken hold and
adopted the old authoritarian tactics, while representing and
proclaiming itself the ``revolutionary government.''
For decades, the regime encouraged and capitalized on the growth of
a culture of discrimination against religious minorities, and
eventually sectarian crimes became crimes of impunity. Substituting the
extension of the rule of law and equal protection of the law, the state
always insisted on ``reconciliation sessions'' where victims and
perpetrators were brought together and coerced into extrajudicial
settlements by the state security apparatus. In March of 2011, when a
Christian man had his ear severed by hardline Islamists known as
Salafis in Upper Egypt, SCAF very powerfully continued the message of
impunity by forcing the victim not to bring legal charges and failing
to investigate or bring the perpetrators to justice. Perceiving the
continuation of the status quo, this and similar incidents strengthened
extremists' convictions that not only would the state tolerate blatant
persecution of Christians and minorities, but it would do so with a nod
and a wink for its own interests, much like the days of the Mubarak
era. Capitalizing on an environment of literal police absence from
Egyptian streets following the revolution--a massive security failure
on the interim government's part which itself requires investigation
and accountability--the Salafis once again lashed out at Christians in
May, when they accused the Coptic church of holding alleged Christian
converts to Islam against their will. Incitement by the Salafis in a
poor, crowded neighborhood of Cairo resulted in an all out war between
Muslims and Christians which lasted for hours, without police or
military intervention, leaving 12 dead and 2 churches burnt to the
ground.
The response of SCAF to the incident was to send in a Salafi
preacher known as Mohamed Hassan to the neighborhood to ``pacify the
situation.'' This ``preacher'' has long been known for his incitement
against Christians and calls for their second class citizenship. He is
also the same man that was granted a podium and allowed, by the
military regime, to preach from Tahrir Square in the weeks following
Mubarak's ouster, where he was given free rein to express hate speech.
While the churches were rebuilt, no one was held to account for the
day's heinous violence, and when interviewed about this in the
independent media, SCAF General Hassan El-Reweiny stated that it was
``preposterous'' to demand further action on the matter, including an
investigation and arrests, since the churches were rebuilt.
Once again, taking their cue from the SCAF's eerily Mubarakist
treatment of Egypt's vicious sectarianism, extremist Muslim youths in
an Upper Egyptian town called Edfu took it upon themselves in September
to destroy a church because it allegedly ``lacked the necessary
permits,'' even though the church was an ancient one that had been
operating for years. Rather than hold to account the youths who lacked
any authority to act on any such claim, the region's governor instead
praised the youths who committed this act, and then SCAF refused to
fire the governor.
With all these successive tragedies in mind, and compounded by
years of societal intolerance, institutionalized discrimination, and
state complicity and incitement, which was clearly continuing with the
SCAF's blessing, Christians took peacefully to the streets on October
9, as they had alongside other Egyptians during the 18 day uprising, to
protest the current military regime and to demand basic civil
liberties. Muslim activists and sympathizers joined them in their call.
They were, as most of us now know and as is and was documented widely
across international media, met with disproportional violence,
culminating in live shootings and the crushing of unarmed civilians by
armored personnel carriers (APC's). Meanwhile, while the corpses of
civilians, most of whom were Christian, were being taken to hospitals,
Egyptian state television misrepresented the facts, stating that
``Coptic gangs'' had killed three soldiers and were attacking the
military in a manner ``not even the Israelis would dare,'' even going
so far as to exhort ``honorable Egyptians'' to come to the defense of
their military. This incitement directly led to vigilante acts of
sectarian violence in Cairo's streets, where some Muslims sought out
and targeted Christians for beatings or worse.
Expectedly but no less tragically, the SCAF's ensuing press
conference addressing the tragedy blamed the victims and exhorted
Egyptians to ``put themselves in the place of the soldier driving the
APC, who was understandably confused and panicked.'' Adding insult to
injury, the SCAF praised the role of Egyptian state tv, and when asked
about the names of the alleged military casualties, refused to release
them for ``security reasons.''
Thus, in the aftermath of the revolution, the state itself has
continued institutionalized discrimination and encouraged the growth of
a culture of sectarianism and impunity to act on that sectarianism.
During the last days of the Mubarak era, a Cairo based human rights
organization had described Egypt as a ``police state infused
increasingly with theocratic elements.'' I would submit that if you
substitute the word ``police state'' with ``military state,'' this
would be an accurate description of the state of things today. The
military regime continues to count on a divide and conquer tactic to
consolidate its power, to scapegoat the Copts to deflect from its own
governance failures, and to sow instability and simultaneously present
itself as the sole solution to that instability, justifying along the
way the continuation or institution of new repressive practices and
laws. One need only give a cursory look at SCAF's history since its
assumption of power: over 12,000 civilians have been tried in military
tribunals that do not meet minimum standards of due process, female
protesters have been subjected to degrading ``virginity tests,'' the
notorious emergency law has been extended, and numerous laws
restricting freedom of assembly and even criminalizing criticism of the
military have been opaquely passed and enforced in draconian fashion.
Local rights groups are already decrying these abuses and more,
including the SCAF's pre-election conduct which observers accurately
note portents to substantial fraud in upcoming elections, where
Islamists are expected to win a substantial parliamentary presence.
This parliament, according to the SCAF's transition plan, will be
responsible for the drafting of Egypt's new Constitution, raising
doubts about whether such a document will embody the aspirations of
Egyptians, as expressed through their revolution, which rejected
notions of both autocracy and theocracy.
Attempts by the SCAF to issue ``guiding principles'' for the
Constitution are no comfort. While the US government may be banking on
SCAF to turn Egypt into a pre-Erdogan Turkish model, what is actually
unfolding is more analogous to more insidious models such as the
Pakistani one, entailing greater power for Islamists and the
marginalization of all other political forces. Avoiding this outcome
requires that the US not fall into the trap it previously did with
Mubarak, placing as it did all its bets on an authoritarian partner and
a police state, which SCAF represents. It means that the US must insist
that its support during and for Egypt's transition be contingent on a
prompt and genuine democratic transition to a civilian authority which
represents the aspirations of all Egyptians and guarantees the equal
rights of all, starting with the immediate cessation of sectarian
incitement and elimination of all forms of discrimination, and
including but not limited to: immediate security sector reform
entailing the prompt return of police to the streets; the conduct of
free and fair elections; an inclusive and transparent constitutional
drafting process; the elimination of laws that repress basic rights and
the expansion of the political space to allow a greater role for civil
society and nonreligious political parties; and a free civilian
presidential race which represents a true handoff of power from the
military. Egypt's civilian president must then go about undoing decades
of the disease of pernicious sectarianism which has infiltrated society
through undertaking substantial legal, institutional, educational, and
media reform, all vast tasks which only a person entrusted and vested
with the faith of Egyptians and the interests of Egypt--and not the
interests of a few privileged generals--could assume. We owe it to
those who sacrificed to herald a new era of freedom in the Middle East.
We owe it to Mina Daniel, who while anticipating being killed by
Mubarak's police forces while camped out in Tahrir Square during the 18
day uprising, survived, only to be killed a few months later at the
hands of Mubarak's successors, who represent more of the same.
Prepared Statement of Samuel Tadros, Research Fellow, Center for
Religious Freedom, Hudson Intitute
Thank you Mr. Chairman for holding this timely and important
hearing and for inviting me to testify today on the plight of Egypt's
Christians and what it signifies for the prospects of a democratic
transition in Egypt.
The title of today's hearing suggests a linkage between religious
freedom, or more precisely the lack thereof and the prospects of
democracy in Egypt. Unfortunately this linkage has been often ignored
by policy makers. The modern debasement of the concept of a free
society to mean, essentially, the holding of elections has blinded many
to the importance of religious freedom to the health and survival of
free societies.
The recent massacre of Copts on the 9th of October, while certainly
significant in terms of the number of victims and the manner of their
deaths, should not blind us to the fact that it is only a continuation
of a previous pattern. Attempting to deal with the massacre and propose
solutions without recognizing that pattern, would limit our
understanding and as a result our proposed remedies.
Previously, before the revolution, Copts were facing three distinct
threats, from Islamists, the government and the general population.
Each entity has its own internal considerations and goals that help to
diminish religious freedom, but it is the dynamic relationship between
them that creates ongoing cycles of intolerance and discrimination.
The Islamist threat took the form of direct violent attacks on
Copts conduct by terrorist organizations. The recent Alexandria Church
bombing on New Year's Eve is a stark reminder of the threat that they
pose.
The government itself engaged in rampant discrimination. Ottoman-
era laws restricting the building of churches remained in force.
Christians were excluded from important government positions. Egypt's
Christian heritage was not mentioned in schoolbooks, and Copts were
almost completely absent from the political landscape. Attacks against
Copts almost always went unpunished.
Most worrisome of all, in recent years, has been the spate of
attacks by ordinary Muslims on their Christian neighbors. Starting with
the massacre in El-Kosheh in January 2000, recent attacks usually have
not been orchestrated by Islamist groups, but have been the result of
ordinary Muslims' anger at something they see as an affront to Islam's
domination and supremacy in the land of Islam: the resumption of work
on an old church, the building of a new one, a rumor of a sexual
relationship between a Christian man and a Muslim woman, or a report of
a suspected lack of respect for Islam shown by a Christian. The
incident usually involves a Muslim mob's attacking Christian homes and
shops, ransacking, burning, and, in some cases, killing.
The Mubarak government's reaction to such attacks only encouraged
them further. The police never arrived in time to stop the violence,
and when they did, they usually simply arrested a couple of dozen local
residents, Christians and Muslims alike. The arrested Christians would
serve as a bargaining chip that the government would use to force the
church to keep quiet. Faced with possible harsh sentences for their
people, the clergy felt that their hands were tied. They were made to
participate in government-organized reconciliation sessions that
gathered local Christian and Muslim clergymen and other notables, the
result of which was to force the Christians to drop all charges. These
gatherings would also, usually, pass some sentence on the Christian
community for its apparent affront--e.g., the family of a Christian man
rumored to be involved sexually with a Muslim woman might be forced to
emigrate from the village and pay compensation, or the Copts might be
forced to abandon building a church and instead conduct their worship
in an unmarked house.
As Egyptians took to the streets in January and February of this
year, calling for an end to the regime's authoritarian grip on power,
some observers were hopeful that the fall of a regime would bring about
a change in the sectarian problem in Egypt. Egypt seemed headed to a
transition to democracy and images of Christians and Muslims protesting
together as well as praying in Tahrir Square created a false optimism
on the direction that Egypt was taking.
Reality soon became hard to ignore.
Instead of bringing about change, the past few months have shown a
reinforcement of pattern of religious discrimination and a substantial
increase in the number of attack on Christians. These new attacks
involved the same three responsible parties. Islamists, freed from any
restraining check of the police, are now free to enforce their vision
on Egyptian society at large and Copts in particular. This enforcement
takes the shape both of planned attacks led by Salafis and joined by
the local mob, such as the May attacks on churches in the Imbaba
neighborhood of Cairo, and of daily persecutions that though mostly
escaping the attention of the press, represent the most alarming aspect
the threats facing Copts. Increasingly, Copts living in poorer
neighborhoods find themselves forced to abide by certain Islamic
practices or face possible punishment. In some cases, Christian girls
in government schools have been forced to wear the hijab by the
Islamist headmasters, who are now free from government control. In a
very disturbing incident, on October 16th, Ayman Nabil Labib, a 17-
year-old Christian student was asked by his teacher to remove the cross
tattooed on his wrist and the one he was wearing around his neck. When
he refused, the teacher was angered and started beating him; his Muslim
classmates joined in the beating, which resulted in his death.
The government, meanwhile, evinces a continued lack of interest in
protecting Christians. The solution of the Supreme Council of the Armed
Forces to the burning of a church in Atfih in March was to invite
Salafi preacher Mohamed Hassan to try to cool down the local Muslims.
Appearing on national TV later, however, he explained that the attack
was not sectarian in nature, but was driven by the discovery of black
magic conducted in the church. No attackers were ever punished. After
an attack on a church in Aswan on September 30, the local governor
actually encouraged the attackers: He declared on TV that the
Christians were to blame for a building violation and that ``our boys''
had corrected the wrongdoing. As a result, a culture of impunity has
been created. Realizing that they will never be punished for their
actions, people are emboldened to attack Christians.
When international and local pressure for action becomes high, the
government resorts to the old tactic of arresting Christians and using
them as a bargaining ship with the Church leadership. Following the
recent attack at Maspero, the government arrested a number of young
Christians. They remain jailed as we speak.
Most worrisome for the future of Christians in Egypt is the
participation of the general Muslim population in these attacks. It is
important to note here that those attacks are not driven by a desire to
kill Christians. The goal remains for Christians to live, permanently,
as second-class citizens. Any attempt by the Copts to break the chains
of Dhimmitude and act as equals is seen as an affront to the supremacy
of Islam in its own land. What fueled the attack on the Aswan church,
for example, was not that Christians wanted to pray; they can do so, as
long as the building in which they do so is not a church. The local
Muslims' demands were that the building have no bells, no microphones,
no crosses, and no domes. What instigated the attacks on the Christians
during their march, before they were killed by the army, was their
chants of ``Raise your head up high, you are a Copt'' and their raised
crosses. In the new Egypt, you can exist as a Copt, but you are not
allowed to be proud of that fact. You will be allowed to survive, but
you must show your submission to the religion of the majority and
recognize your inferior status.
Faced with these growing threats, it is no surprise that the Copts
are questioning whether there is a future for them in the new Egypt.
Isolated and ignored by the West, the Copts can only wonder today
whether, after 2,000 years, the time has come for them to pack their
belongings and leave, as Egypt looks less hospitable to them than ever.
Like the Jewish communities scattered in Europe during the Middle Ages,
the Copts are realizing the eternal lesson of minorities' survival:
Better the persecuting ruler than the mob. A ruler can be bought off or
constrained by international pressure; with a mob there are no
constraints.
Most importantly elections are not likely to provide any remedy to
their predicament. The rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and the more
extremist Salafists poses an unprecedented threat to the Copts. With
the Islamists all but guaranteed to control the next Egyptian
Parliament, a culture of impunity is about to become a culture of
encouragement.
As recent events have shown, the Copts refuse to accept the
inferior status. They refuse simply to disappear, as many ancient
communities in the Middle East have done in the last century. They will
continue to raise their heads up high with their crosses, but they will
not succeed. Neither is Egypt's geography or demographic distribution
in their favor.
Neither is immigration. While the intensified pressure and attacks
are likely to result in a large wave of emigration, the sheer numbers
involved make the complete immigration of the community unfeasible
regardless of its undesirability. The most fortunate will take the
first planes to the U.S., Canada, and Australia, but a community of 8-
10 million people cannot possibly emigrate en masse in a short time.
The poorer Copts, the ones who face daily persecution, will be left
behind. For them, the winter has already arrived, and it will be cold
and long.
For those concerned about Egypt's future and the prospect of a
transition to democracy, defending religious freedom remains the only
solution. The ballot box offers no magical solution. It is merely a
tool. Building a truly free society is like Edmund Burke wrote no easy
task, for a free society is one where religious freedom and free
enterprise provide the foundation on which democracy can be built.
Egypt remains a key ally and friend of the United States. The
direction that Egypt will take will have ramifications on the
surrounding countries and as such is of vital importance to the United
States national security. There is no question that the United States
has at its disposal numerous tools to positively affect the transition
in Egypt. The real question is whether it is willing.
The following steps are essential to take:
Last week's announcement by the head of the military
courts that both civilians and military personal are being tried for
the Maspero massacre offers the first admission by the Military that
something went wrong at that incident and that they lost control of
their soldiers. Punishment for those responsible for the massacre
should be a first step in dealing with the incident.
The parliamentary elections in Egypt will not result in
any significant Christian representation. Nevertheless Christian
participation in the Constitution writing process should be stressed.
The new Egyptian Constitution must offer religious freedom for its
citizens and equality for all Egyptians regardless of their religion.
As according to the existing electoral timetable, the
Supreme Council of the Armed Forces will continue to rule and govern
Egypt for at least 1 year, and with the collapse of the police, the
army is likely to continue being used for basic policing and law and
order for some time to come. Not having gone through any policing
training, they have shown a lack of ability to deal with such tasks.
The US military has developed excellent manuals and built tremendous
experience in providing law and order in conflict zones. With its
strong ties to the Egyptian military, the U.S. Army can help provide
them with necessary trainings.
While the United States through the State Department and
the USAID is providing numerous grants to strengthen democracy in
Egypt, there have been disturbing reports recently that some of this
money is being provided to Islamist parties and groups, whose
commitment to religious freedom is doubtful. Oversight of this funding
should ensure that this money is only given to groups committed to
religious freedom.
Copts, like their fellow countrymen are discovering
democracy for the first time. They are challenged to organize quickly
to be able to have a voice in their country's future. The U.S. must
ensure that amongst the groups that it funds, adequate attention and
funding is provided to Coptic groups that attempt to organize
politically.
Thank you once again for organizing and chairing this hearing and
for inviting me to testify.
Prepared Statement of Dr. Michele Dunne, Director, Rafik Center for the
Middle East Atlantic Council
Mr. Chairman, Senator Cardin, distinguished members:
Thank you for the honor of testifying before the Commission.
After the celebrations of Muslim-Christian unity that Tahrir Square
witnessed during the 18 days of the Egyptian revolution early this
year, it is disappointing to see that sectarian tensions have escalated
dangerously in the intervening months, leading to dozens of deaths,
hundreds of injuries, and a spreading sense of fear among Egyptian
Christians. The violence is not, unfortunately, particularly
surprising, because it is to be expected that in a post-revolutionary
climate all of the tensions and conflicts that were beneath the surface
will emerge more openly. Sectarian tensions have been present for
decades and were already rising noticeably in the months before the
January 25 revolution. One of the most disturbing sectarian attacks in
years-the bombing of a church in Alexandria in which 23 people died-
took place on January 1, following weeks of escalating anti-Christian
demonstrations by Salafi Muslims.
This clear and disturbing trend makes it all the more difficult to
understand why the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF),
entrusted by Egyptians with authority upon the forced resignation of
former President Hosni Mubarak, has failed to address sectarian
violence in any effective manner. The SCAF's approach has been almost
identical to that of the Mubarak era; that is, after each sectarian
incident the authorities promise to investigate and prosecute crimes
vigorously and to address the underlying causes of the incident, such
as discriminatory laws regarding the building and alteration of places
of worship. But as soon as public attention moves on, such efforts are
either abandoned or long delayed, leaving the victims with a sense of
injustice and the perpetrators with a sense of impunity, and sowing the
seeds of further violence.
Investigations of several incidents of large-scale anti-Christian
violence (the January 1 Alexandria bombing as well as clashes in March
and April in Cairo, and the October 9 Maspero incident) are ongoing and
might well be inconclusive. With more than 75 people dead in these and
other incidents in 2011, there has not as yet been a single conviction
on charges of murder or manslaughter. In cases where military or
government officials are accused of complicity in violence or at least
irresponsibility in dealing with it--such as the October 9 incident in
which Egyptian state media incited citizens to confront peaceful
demonstrators and soldiers ran over them in armored vehicles-the SCAF
has staunchly resisted accountability.
The transitional authority supervised by the SCAF also has been
slow to make promised legal changes to address the causes of violence.
After a May 2011 attack on a church in Cairo, the authorities promised
to pass a new law on construction of places of worship. The draft has
languished in various forms for months, while many new instances of
violence (including the Maspero incident in October) have broken out
due to inter-communal tensions surrounding the building or renovation
of church facilities. An anti-discrimination law was finally issued in
the aftermath of the October violence; it is yet to be seen whether it
will be applied.
Anti-Christian violence is one of several serious internal Egyptian
problems (rising crime, for example, and a deteriorating economy) with
which the SCAF has shown itself to be unwilling or unable to deal. As a
military organization, the SCAF is not equipped to address such issues
and should not be called upon to do so, particularly for a prolonged
period. That is why it is essential that the SCAF agree to a clear,
realistic timetable to turn not only legislative but also executive
authority over to elected civilians.
The problem now is that the SCAF is trying to postpone the transfer
of executive authority until it secures guarantees of its status post-
elections; and the status it is seeking is not simply a continuation of
the extensive political influence and economic perquisites it enjoyed
during the Mubarak era, but more than that. The SCAF has sponsored a
document of supraconstitutional principles that would give it the
implicit right to intervene in politics and the explicit right to
overrule legislation, as well as freedom from civilian supervision or
budgetary oversight. What this would produce is a political system
similar to that of Pakistan, where elected civilian institutions are
relatively powerless while unelected and unaccountable military and
intelligence services actually run the country. And as we know from
Pakistan as well as from Egypt's own history and current situation that
in such a system military and intelligence organizations often
manipulate sectarian tensions and extremist tendencies within the
country in order to serve narrow agendas.
That would be a very unhappy outcome of the January 25 revolution
for all Egyptians, including Egyptian Christians, and also for the
United States, which cannot escape partial responsibility for the
actions of the SCAF due to the tens of billions in military assistance
it has provided. The United States should stand unambiguously on the
side of development of a real democratic system in which the rights of
all citizens are protected in a climate of free political competition
and the rule of law.
Only in a democratic system will difficult issues such as anti-
Christian violence and discrimination be able to be addressed openly.
This will not happen overnight; building a strong Egyptian democracy
will be the project of many years. But it would be a serious mistake to
create large new obstacles now by acquiescing to the expansion and
formalization of military privileges out of fear that Islamists might
gain a plurality, or even a majority, in the parliament to be elected
over the next few months. There are many uncertainties involved when
freely elected civilian institutions have real power; one thing that is
already known for certain is that military rulers will fail to protect
all citizens and enforce laws without discrimination.
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Commission on Security and
Cooperation in Europe.
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