[House Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
GANGS IN OUR COMMUNITIES: DRUGS, HUMAN TRAFFICKING, AND VIOLENCE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
HOMELAND SECURITY, AND INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
JULY 20, 2017
__________
Serial No. 115-41
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
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Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
Wisconsin JERROLD NADLER, New York
LAMAR SMITH, Texas ZOE LOFGREN, California
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
DARRELL E. ISSA, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
STEVE KING, Iowa HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona Georgia
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
JIM JORDAN, Ohio LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
TED POE, Texas KAREN BASS, California
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah CEDRIC L. RICHMOND, Louisiana
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
RAUL LABRADOR, Idaho ERIC SWALWELL, California
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas TED LIEU, California
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland
RON DeSANTIS, Florida PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
KEN BUCK, Colorado BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas
MARTHA ROBY, Alabama
MATT GAETZ, Florida
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff and General Counsel
Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
------
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security and Investigations
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina, Chairman
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas, Vice-Chairman
JIM SENSENBRENNER, Jr., Wisconsin SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio TED DEUTCH, Florida
TED POE, Texas KAREN BASS, California
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah CEDRIC L. RICHMOND, Louisiana
JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York
MARTHA ROBY, Alabama TED LIEU, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland
C O N T E N T S
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JULY 20, 2017
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
The Honorable Louis Gohmert, Texas, Vice-Chairman, Subcommittee
on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations;
Committee on the Judiciary..................................... 00
The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., Michigan, Ranking Member,
Committee on the Judiciary..................................... 00
The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, Virginia, Chairman, Committee on the
Judiciary...................................................... 00
The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Texas, Ranking Member,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and
Investigations; Committee on the Judiciary..................... 00
WITNESSES
Mr. Kenneth Blanco, Acting Assistant Attorney General of the
Criminal Division, U.S. Department of Justice
Oral Statement............................................... 2
Mr. Mark Vanek, Board Advisory Member, Midwest Gang Investigators
Association, Illinois Chapter
Oral Statement............................................... 3
Captain Chris Marks, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
Oral Statement............................................... 6
Dr. Gary Slutkin, Founder, Cure Violence
Oral Statement............................................... 7
GANGS IN OUR COMMUNITIES: DRUGS, HUMAN TRAFFICKING, AND VIOLENCE
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THURSDAY, JULY 20, 2017
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, and Investigations
Committee on the Judiciary4
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James F.
Sensenbrenner, Jr. [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Sensenbrenner, Goodlatte, Chabot,
Poe, Rutherford, Jackson Lee, Bass, and Lieu.
Staff Present: Margaret Barr, Counsel; Scott Johnson,
Clerk; Joe Graupensperger, Minority Chief Counsel, Subcommittee
on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security and Investigations;
Monalisa Dugue, Minority Deputy Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on
Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security and Investigations;
Veronica Eligan, Minority Professional Staff Member; Mauri
Gray, Minority Crime Detailee; and Regina Milledge-Brown,
Minority Crime Detailee.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. It is now 10 o'clock. The Subcommittee
on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security will come to order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses
of the subcommittee at any time.
And let me say that we are to vote between 10:45 and 10:50.
I will not make an opening statement, but put my opening
statement into the record. I will ask every other member to
allow us to hear the witnesses so that they all are able to get
their testimony in before we have to leave to go and vote. So
without objection, all opening statements will be placed into
the record at this time.
We have a very distinguished panel this morning, and I will
begin by swearing in our witnesses before introducing them.
Would you all please rise and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
to this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Let the record show that all of the witnesses have answered
in the affirmative.
I will give an abbreviated introduction for all of the
witnesses so that we can hear them and get to as many questions
as possible.
The first witness is Kenneth Blanco, who is the acting
assistant attorney general for the Criminal Division in the
Department of Justice. The second witness is Mr. Marc Vanek,
who is a board advisory member for the Illinois Chapter of the
Midwest Gang Investigators Association. The third witness is
Captain Chris Marks from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's
Department. And our fourth witness is Dr. Gary Slutkin, who is
the founder of Cure Violence, a nongovernment organization
based in Chicago.
We will now proceed under the 5-minute rule.
And Mr. Blanco, you are first.
TESTIMONY OF MR. KENNETH BLANCO, ACTING ASSISTANT ATTORNEY
GENERAL OF THE CRIMINAL DIVISION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE;
MR. MARC VANEK, BOARD ADVISORY MEMBER, MIDWEST GANG
INVESTIGATORS ASSOCIATION, ILLINOIS CHAPTER; CAPTAIN CHRIS
MARKS, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT; AND DR. GARY
SLUTKIN, FOUNDER, CURE VIOLENCE
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH BLANCO
Mr. Blanco. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Goodlatte,
Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member Jackson Lee, and members
of the subcommittee. It is a pleasure to appear before you this
morning to discuss the Department of Justice's efforts to
combat gang violence.
Violent crime is on the rise in many parts of America. Gang
violence is increasingly in the headlines and news cycles every
day in its frequency and its effect in the communities and its
effect on innocent people who get caught in the crossfire.
There are approximately 1.4 million members of 33,000 gangs
operating across the country, all of whom use violence to boost
their illegal money-making activities, protect their
territories, intimidate their rivals, and enhance their status
and fulfill their missions.
Too many of our citizens live in fear of these violent
criminals. All Americans deserve to be free from violence and
safe in their homes, schools, jobs, and neighborhoods.
This is why it is a top priority of the Department of
Justice, under the leadership of Attorney General Sessions, to
reduce violent crime in America, including gang-related
violence.
Reducing crime requires that we balance strong law
enforcement with effective prevention measures. We must take
the violent offenders off the street and thwart gangs' efforts
to recruit vulnerable youth.
To achieve the first of these twin aims, the Department
relies on the expertise of its Federal prosecutors and law
enforcement agents, including the Criminal Division's Organized
Crime and Gang Section, the Narcotic and Dangerous Drug
section, the U.S. Attorneys' Offices, as well as its law
enforcement agencies, like the ATF, FBI, DEA, and U.S. Marshals
Service, and other law enforcement partners, such as the U.S.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Homeland Security
Investigations, HSI, and State, local, and Tribal law
enforcement partners.
Federal prosecutors and their law enforcement partners lead
investigations and prosecutions of criminal gangs of regional,
national, and international significance, such as the Aryan
Brotherhood of Texas, the Gangster Disciples, and the MS-13, to
name just a few.
Prosecutors and investigators have prioritized violent
crime and are working to identify the most violent offenders in
their districts and to ensure that individuals are prosecuted
fully and sentenced appropriately, including under applicable
Federal, State guidelines and significant penalties under the
law.
Many gangs distribute dangerous illegal drugs to generate
income to support their criminal activities, and with drug
distribution comes violence. Thus, when appropriate, Federal
prosecutors also seek to charge gang members and the foreign
kingpins who supply them with drug offenses.
None of these investigations and prosecutions, however,
would be possible without the daily sacrifice of the dedicated
law enforcement officers who investigate these criminals.
Specialized task forces comprised of Federal, State, local, and
Tribal law enforcement officers, such as the FBI's Safe Streets
Task Forces, HSI's Operation Community Shield, and those funded
by the Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Forces Program
are hard at work in the areas with the highest concentration of
drug and gang violence.
Law enforcement efforts to arrest and incarcerate violent
gang members have a significant impact on the quality of life
in our communities. But enforcement alone will not end gang
membership and gang violence. We must also support gang
intervention and gang prevention programs.
Many such programs are funded by the Department's grant-
making components, including the Office of Justice Programs,
OJP, and the Office of Community Oriented Policing Services,
COPS.
For example, OJP's Office of Juvenile Justice and
Delinquency Prevention and Bureau of Justice Assistance jointly
fund the National Gang Center, which provides comprehensive
resources, training, and strategic tools to those in the field
of law enforcement and criminal justice, as well as to the
community organizations to prevent gang violence, reduce gang
involvement, and suppress gang-related crime.
These are just but a few examples of the Department's
continued commitment to supporting our Federal, State, local,
and Tribal enforcement partners and ending the scourge of gang
violence in our communities.
Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions.
[The testimony of Mr. Blanco follows:]
INSERT 1-1
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Thanks very much, Mr. Blanco.
I forgot to ask this. I ask unanimous consent that all of
the witnesses' written statements be placed in the record in
full.
Mr. Vanek.
TESTIMONY OF MARC VANEK
Mr. Vanek. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member, and members of the subcommittee, for inviting me today
to speak about gangs in our community. It is an honor and
privilege to be here today.
I currently serve on the board for the Midwest Gang
Investigators Association, Illinois Chapter. The Midwest Gang
Investigators Association was formed in 1987 and is an
organization with over 2,000 members representing 12 States
throughout the Midwest. It is a collaborative association whose
mission is to develop and recommend strategies to prevent and
control gang crime, administer professional training, as well
as assist criminal justice professionals, educators, probation/
parole, and the public regarding gangs in their communities.
For the last 17 years, I have been employed as a full-time
sworn law enforcement officer in the Midwest with extensive
experience in investigating street gangs on both the State and
Federal level.
Street gangs today are different than the gangs of 10, 20,
even 30 years ago. Presently, street gangs are more violent,
more technological-savvy, factionalized, and glorified. Street
gangs have increased their prominence over juveniles and drug
addicts in their day-to-day operations.
Social media, the internet, television, and the explosion
of the gangster rap culture has glorified the gang lifestyle to
juveniles. In African American gangs factionalization has
become the norm in the street gang life with no longer a strict
hierarchy.
Presently, gangs have factions that number into the
hundreds. In Chicago, for example, one gang has over 200
factions operating in the city of Chicago and dozens more in
the metropolitan area. In many suburban areas, every block has
its own faction or what is being called a hybrid gang.
A hybrid gang, or gang faction, consists of a younger
generation of gang members, gang members of different racial/
ethnic groups, and gang members that were or are from different
gangs. These hybrid gangs have unclear codes of conduct, no
hierarchy, or no symbolic association with more than one gang.
The Hispanic gangs have largely remained under control of a
strict hierarchy. The Hispanic gangs are still committed to
their codes, colors, and territory and loyalty to their gang.
The Hispanic gangs still abide by the People and Folks Nation
alliances from the late 1970s.
Gang members prey on individuals that cannot help
themselves by getting them addicted to a certain drug and then
routinely provide them with that drug. Gang members have become
the staple for supply of fentanyl and carfentanyl into the
streets. Just a quarter of a milligram of fentanyl can kill you
almost instantly. Carfentanyl is 10,000 times stronger than
morphine and 100 times stronger than fentanyl.
The younger generation of gang members are more tech savvy
than ever before. The internet and social media have made it
enormously easier for gang members to reach a larger customer
base than selling on the street corner. At any time, I can go
onto the internet or social media and within seconds interact
with a gang member to purchase any type of drug I wish. I have
personally investigated these types of crimes, and it has
become chilling to the extent of the amounts and variety of
drugs that are available to be purchased as well as weapons.
The cause of gang violence stems from several factors, such
as fighting over selling drugs, comments made on social media,
rap song lyrics that each gang creates about their rivals, and
in particular Hispanic gangs fighting over colors and
territory.
Gang members have taken violence within their communities
to a higher level than ever seen before. In today's gang world,
juveniles and innocent bystanders are being shot and killed
more than ever. Gang members today view targeting a rival
gang's family as just a worthy target as targeting the
individual gang member themselves.
In areas like the State of Illinois, County of Cook, when
an individual is shot and either a victim or a witness makes a
positive identification of that offender and the victim does
not wish to prosecute, the offender is not charged with the
offense. In fact, often the offender is not charged with any
crime.
Another hindrance for law enforcement is getting overworked
and resource-drained prosecutors to approve charges on gang
cases based on the facts and merits of the case rather than
what it is believed a judge or jury will view on.
The biggest obstacle for law enforcement is getting
witnesses to cooperate in any type of gang-related
investigation. Law enforcement does not have the immediate
resources available to relocate or provide assistance to
witnesses. Without any assistance or incentives, how can we
expect witnesses to come forward and place their lives and
families in harm's way?
There are technological advances that can help law
enforcement on gang-related and shooting murder scenes.
Ammunition, when fired from, leaves a unique fingerprint-type
mark in semi- and fully-automatic firearms. Requiring samples
from all semi-automatic or fully automatic firearms entered
into the NIBIN system would provide law enforcement
investigators with new immediate leads that would allow law
enforcement to be able to stem the proliferation of gun straw
purchasers to street gang members.
Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the
subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify today. Law
enforcement cannot be the sole answer to reducing gang
violence. Law enforcement is only part of the solution to
reducing gang violence. Prosecutors and judges must be held
accountable as well as law enforcement is with the rise in gang
violence. Law enforcement, the judicial system, government, and
social and economic programs and community involvement are all
central to reducing gang violence. Not one entity can solve it
alone or take credit. It must be a coordinated effort on all
parties.
I look forward to answering your questions that you might
have about gangs and look forward to working with members of
the subcommittee to ensure success in reducing gang violence.
Thank you.
[The testimony of Mr. Vanek follows:]
INSERT 1-2
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Thank you, Mr. Vanek.
Captain Marks.
TESTIMONY OF CHRIS MARKS
Captain Marks. Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member
Jackson Lee, distinguished members of the subcommittee, on
behalf of the Major County Sheriffs of America, Los Angeles
County Sheriff Jim McDonnell, and all the partners who comprise
the Los Angeles Regional Human Trafficking Task Force, thank
you for inviting me to testify this morning on street gang
members and sex trafficking.
The Los Angeles Regional Human Trafficking Regional Task
Force combines the resources of local, State, and Federal law
enforcement with the prosecutorial authority of the Los Angeles
district attorney and the U.S. Attorney's Office with a truly
victim-centered approach.
The combination of resources, including the Los Angeles
County Department of Children and Family Services, Los Angeles
County Probation Department, California Department of
Corrections, and a nonprofit coalition against slavery and
trafficking, are all co-located in the same office, literally
sitting next to each other.
Our co-location model breaks down the previously
established silos between agencies and brings together systems
of discipline to address the victim's needs through a victim-
centered, trauma-informed approach. The task force employs a
regionalized strategy that crosses jurisdictional boundaries to
identify and rescue victims of sex trafficking while
aggressively pursuing traffickers and buyers.
For generations, criminal street gangs have pursued and
have succeeded in criminal enterprises. However, the street
gangs historically operated their enterprises within an
established territory. Their willingness to commit crimes out
of their geographical areas was generally limited to violence
against rival gangs and property crimes.
For the past several years, gangs have moved beyond their
territorial boundaries and travel throughout the State in teams
or as crews, as they're known, to commit residential burglaries
and robberies.
Los Angeles gangs began utilizing the flocking tactic. In
flocking, criminal street gang members from a single gang or
multiple gangs, and sometimes even rival gangs, join together,
travel throughout the southland, and commit residential
burglaries by forcing entry into a house in overwhelming
numbers and in less than a minute or 2 commit the crime.
Now criminal street gang members are proliferating in the
illegal sex trafficking market. Gang members have realized the
lucrative opportunity sex trafficking offers throughout Los
Angeles County. In the majority of cases that we handle, the
traffickers are a gang member or an affiliate of a gang.
The crime of trafficking commercially sexually exploited
children presents a relatively low risk of arrest for the gang
member engaged in sex trafficking. Previous illegal
enterprises, such as illegal narcotics, weapons, and stolen
property place the possessor in immediate threat of arrest due
to the mere possession of such contraband. For sex traffickers,
being in the presence of a commercially sexually exploited
child is not a crime.
To add to the complexity of this issue, the commercially
sexually exploited child victim commonly does not want to
cooperate with law enforcement initially because of that strong
trauma bond they have with their trafficker.
An additional motivating factor for gangs to pursue sex
trafficking is the fact that narcotics, weapons, and property
can only be sold once. And as we all know, sex trafficking
victims can be sold multiple times a day every day of the
weeks.
In Los Angeles County and throughout California, gang
members operate sex trafficking victims both independently and
for the benefit of the gang, and frequently the gang members
will travel to any community to recruit sex trafficking
victims. And they will also travel to any community to sell
their trafficking victims either online, on the street, or in a
motel, without fear of retaliation for violating another gang's
territory.
However, in certain geographically claimed areas of Los
Angeles, some gangs require the sex trafficking victims to pay
a tax in order to work in that area. The practice of taxing is
a common means of gaining money for the benefit of a gang and
has historically been employed against small businesses. The
tax for sex workers has not been uniformly adopted throughout
Los Angeles or California.
Street gang members commonly possess unique abilities to
identify vulnerable populations online, at schools, or in
public places. These vulnerable people, typically young girls,
have often suffered physical, sexual, or psychological abuse
and/or neglect throughout their lives.
The predatory senses of a gang member engaged in
trafficking easily identify this population, and their gang
membership is used to glorify the lifestyle and the acts of
prostitution as a powerful recruitment tool. The gang member
then expertly manipulates the vulnerable child using his
affiliation to demonstrate his willingness and ability as a
criminal to be capable of committing violence to protect them.
Once recruited, the gang member exerts control over the
trafficking victim through physical, psychological abuse and an
atmosphere of dependency.
I want to thank the subcommittee and its staff for
affording me the opportunity to testify before you today.
[The testimony of Captain Marks follows:]
INSERT 1-3
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Thank you, Captain Marks.
Dr. Slutkin.
TESTIMONY OF GARY SLUTKIN
Dr. Slutkin. Chairman Sensenbrenner, Ranking Member Jackson
Lee, distinguished members, thank you for the opportunity to
testify.
I'm Dr. Gary Slutkin. I'm a physician and the founder and
executive director of Cure Violence. Cure Violence is an NGO
rated 12th in the world among the top 500 NGOs and ranked first
among organizations devoted to reducing violence.
I previously worked for the World Health Organization where
I learned the tools of working on epidemics, epidemics of TB,
AIDS, and cholera, mostly in Africa. I returned to the U.S. in
1995 and began working on violence in this country. We
discovered that new research shows that violence is not exactly
what we thought. It's an epidemic problem like other health
epidemics, but it isn't being managed that way.
We've also learned that there are new methods that work
that can help that have a big impact. These methods are being
greatly underutilized.
The main thing about violence is to see that the persons
and groups doing this have a contagious process which can be
reversed. We have to shake some of our old ideas. Dozens of
studies show that violence is predictably acquired as a
contagious problem through brain mechanisms and pathways that
cause copying and following what peers do. The definitive
evidence for this is in this Institute of Medicine Report of
2013.
This violence spreads among individuals and groups and
families, even suicides, and extremist recruitment also happens
in this way. The violence in the U.S. and Latin America is
following very basic epidemic patterns, like all epidemic
diseases.
We took advantage of this first in Chicago in the year 2000
when we tried standard epidemic control health methods in a
pilot in West Garfield Park, which was the most violent
community in the country at that time. We hired and trained
epidemic control workers, who we called interrupters, behavior
change agents, outreach workers. We got a 67 percent drop in
shootings and killings in the first year, and it was almost
immediate.
Funders said do it again. We had four more replications
with 45 percent, on average, drops in shootings and killings.
Since then, there have been several independent evaluations in
the work, and it's spread to 25 cities in the U.S. as well as
in Latin America.
These results are attained by health workers similar to
those that are used for other epidemics. Health departments or
other government agencies supervise this work. In New York
City, Baltimore, and Kansas City, the health department runs
it. In Honduras, it is a local pastor. In Mexico, a public-
private partnership. In El Salvador, a partnership with Save
the Children.
The results are usually 25 to 50 percent drops in shootings
and killings, but 70 to 100 percent are seen when there are
enough workers. Approximately 40 to 70 percent has been seen in
Chicago alcoholic; 30 to 50 percent drops in Baltimore; 50
percent in Juarez, Mexico; and 88 percent in San Pedro Sula,
Honduras.
It also can be fast, with results shown within the first
month multiple times. Several communities have also gone to
zero for a year to 2 years. Some of these communities include
Cherry Hill in Baltimore and Yonkers in New York. This is what
you aim for in epidemic control.
When I was working on a cholera epidemic in Somalia, we
were not aiming for 40 to 70 percent drops. We were aiming to
get rid of it, like for Ebola. There are many accomplishments
in public health with these measures in which many diseases and
problems are no longer with us.
A few last things. Chicago has gone up and down in relation
to the public health work. There is a 20-page report on this on
our website. The ups and downs in Chicago have mostly been
related to the ups and downs in the State of Illinois budget,
which, as you know, was without a budget for the last 2 years.
When Cure Violence lost 13 or 14 sites in March of 2015, it
was exactly the turning point in Chicago when the violence
began to go up. This one site that remained has continued to go
down.
Last, the stream of unoccupied children and others from
Latin America are fleeing violence. We are getting big
reductions in Latin America with this method and can help a lot
there as well as in our cities. This solution, public health
methods, is an entirely nonpolitical and free of prior
controversy solution which has been underutilized by prior
administrations. I suggest we change this.
Understanding violence as a contagious epidemic and
reversible health problem solves a lot of our problems and
could save tens of billions of dollars. Law enforcement now is
being asked to do way too much. It is also being blamed too
much. And we can help.
Thank you.
[The testimony of Dr. Slutkin follows:]
INSERT 1-4
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Thank you very much, Dr. Slutkin.
The chair will revert to what he did during his previous
chairmanship, and that is recognize members under the 5-minute
rule in the order in which they appeared alternately between
the majority and the minority parties. I would ask members to
keep their questioning to 5 minutes. And in case the bell rings
early, I will withhold my questions to see if we have time
after all the other members ask questions.
So the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Poe, is recognized for 5
minutes.
Mr. Poe. I thank the chairman.
Thank all you all for being here.
In my other life, I was a prosecutor and a criminal court
judge for 22 years, so I want to address my questions to
specifically the scourge of human trafficking that, Captain
Marks, you mentioned, and, Mr. Vanek, you mentioned as well.
The average age, I understand, for a trafficking victim is
13. It's a female. Is that correct, Captain Marks?
Captain Marks. That's published in many articles and
studies. However, what we see at the Los Angeles task force,
generally the age that we encounter them is 15, 16, and 17.
Mr. Poe. Okay. And as you said, trafficking, sex human
trafficking and sex victims, is lucrative because the victims,
unfortunately, are abused and used multiple times a day, some
cases 20, 25 times a day, the risk of apprehension is less and,
until recently, the punishment has been less for capturing the
traffickers.
The new legislation that Congress has passed now not only
goes after the trafficker, but goes after the buyer, who ought
to be in jail, the consumer, and helps rescue victims of crime
and restores them back to some dignity.
Explain to me so that it's very clear, anyone, but start
with Captain Marks, how prevalent is human sex trafficking in
the gang culture?
Captain Marks. Well, in preparation for today's testimony,
yesterday I asked one of my crime analysts to scour through
different social media sites and pull up recent ads that I
could use as talking points. One of the ads she pulled up was a
gang member as a pimp who is looking for girls to recruit.
Within an hour of conversation with an undercover deputy
sheriff, we had made an arrangement, posing as an underage
girl, to meet him and to go to work for him, and we had
arrested him a couple hours after meeting with him.
So it's frighteningly prevalent. Literally, the more we
look, the more we find. Every time we go online and advertise
either as an underage girl, we get all kinds of reactions and
interactions from people wanting to be sex traffickers for
those girls.
Mr. Poe. Mr. Vanek, do you want to comment on that?
Mr. Vanek. I couldn't agree more. With the use of social
media and the internet, it's become increasingly easier for
these gang members to reach out and connect with anyone, any
female that could be from the suburbs or even in their own
neighborhood. It's just as simple as going on your cell phone,
which everybody has now, and placing an ad.
Mr. Poe. To your knowledge, have you seen ads placed on
Backpage that had been used to further the criminal conduct of
human sex trafficking?
Mr. Vanek. Yes. Backpage, Facebook, Craigslist, all of
those are utilized.
Mr. Poe. And my question really is, help me understand how
prevalent this problem is. I've heard anecdotally, it's easy to
recruit and get these girls into sex slavery. But how prevalent
is it?
Mr. Vanek. It's basically an everyday occurrence. You'll
have a younger female that has no means, no ways about
providing for themselves. It's an everyday occurrence in these
high-crime gang areas. And they look for options. And a lot of
times, the option is getting into the sex trafficking and their
connection to the gang member.
Mr. Poe. Foreign gangs, in my opinion, operate in the
United States. MS-13 is a perfect example. In the immigrant
community, how prevalent is this sex trafficking of immigrants
that have come into the United States?
Captain Marks.
Captain Marks. Yes, sir.
So the commercial sexual exploitation of children is
basically a domestic problem for us with the gang members. The
girls that they're recruiting, that they're putting to work as
commercial sex workers are homegrown. They're American
citizens. Where we see foreign victims is generally when we get
into illicit massage businesses.
But to answer your question, it's a homegrown problem, and
we have a huge vulnerable population. The road that these
victims take once they become a commercially sexually exploited
victim is usually a lifetime of abuse. So they're a very
vulnerable population.
Mr. Poe. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me thank Mr. Conyers and Mr. Goodlatte
for their commitment to this work that I have generated over
the past period that I've had the privilege of serving as the
ranking member of this committee. Let me thank Mr.
Sensenbrenner for his years of commitment and dedication to
these issues and look forward to driving solutions.
My level of frustration is high because it is long overdue
for holistic criminal justice reform, Captain, in helping you
and all of the witnesses here. And let me thank all the
witnesses.
Mr. Blanco, very quickly, we are seeking to reauthorize the
juvenile block grant, which, as you well know, is a tool that
the DOJ has working with juveniles, which we are trying to
emphasize best practices. Would that be helpful to you,
reauthorization, new ideas, best practices, and using that
block grant reauthorization?
Mr. Blanco. Madam Congressperson, unfortunately, I'm not
familiar exactly with that block grant. But I can tell you that
I know that the Attorney General is interested in using all
kinds of ideas in order to better the community and save our
streets and protect our citizens and our victims. But I can't
specifically answer that.
Ms. Jackson Lee. No problem. We'll take that as a yes.
Thank you very much.
Let me ask the good doctor. Thank you so very much. And for
the other witnesses, I'm going to allow my colleagues to
pointedly ask you question, but I'm going to thank you.
Doctor, I'm frustrated. You have given me an opportunity to
focus in on several questions.
First, I'd like to lay the groundwork. Mr. Blanco said that
juveniles are used, are being used as pawns to carry out the
bad deeds of gang leaders. There is the crux. I think in your
statement you indicated violence goes from brain to brain, from
12-year-old brain to 13-year-old brain, 13-year-old brain back
to 14, and on.
Focus on the reality of us using your program and the
potential of it having major impact. My first point is, have
you ever been embraced by the Department of Justice as a tool
that could be used across the country?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Is your mike on?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes, we have been funded by the Department of
Justice. We have been regularly highlighted by the Department
of Justice.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Are you now funded?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes, through a partnership for and the Victims
of Crime Act.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And where are you using that funding?
Dr. Slutkin. Multiple cities. I think it's about 20 cities.
And we have also just been asked to present at their next
forum.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So would you be kind enough to provide
us--I'm not sure if it's in your testimony--the list of cities
and results of those cities?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes. Samples of it are in the written
testimony, and more can be provided.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And if we were to expand your
opportunities through funding, you could expand to other cities
and you could present results?
Dr. Slutkin. Yeah. Absolutely. And we would be reporting to
the committee as well as whatever funders there would be.
I just want to add that this is additive to law
enforcement. There is nothing except synergy here. And this is
why we've been able to get this good result.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let's give me an example. Why don't you
articulate, even though it's in your statement, what you did in
Chicago. Because Chicago's image is there is nothing good
happening in Chicago. Help me with Cure Violence and how it
cures and how it helps. Give me the A, B, C.
Dr. Slutkin. Well, I mean, the way that it works is
primarily by hiring interrupters and outreach workers. These
are new categories of workers. These are people who have
credibility and access and trust with the population. The
population that is about to do a shooting tonight or today, we
have access to them and can cool them down. These workers are
very highly selected and supertrained, hundreds of hours of
training. They know how to cool someone down, buy some time,
and then shift their thinking, so they feel socially okay to
not do a shooting.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Give me an example of a worker. Don't give
their name, but age, race.
Dr. Slutkin. Yeah. The workers are a little bit older than
those who are doing the shooting, as it turns out. And
frequently they come from the same lifestyle and the same
background, so that's why they have the credibility and trust.
And this is the way we work in public health. We use sex
workers to reach--former sex workers to reach sex workers and
moms to reach moms, et cetera. So they're people who have this
kind of access and trust and, therefore, they're not at risk
themselves.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Now, are they African American? Are they
Hispanic?
Dr. Slutkin. If they're in an African American community,
they're African American.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So you use the indigenous, if I might use
the terminology, people.
Mr. Slutkin. One hundred percent. All epidemics are managed
from the inside out, not from the outside in.
Ms. Jackson Lee. And you've seen the results of statistics
of crime going down?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Violence.
Mr. Slutkin. Yes. Absolutely.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Rutherford.
Mr. Rutherford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, panel, for being here this morning to
discuss issues that are certainly affecting every major city in
the United States.
And, Mr. Blanco, I'd like to start with you and Mr. Vanek.
I want to kind of shift to prosecution. Can you discuss a
little bit the challenges that we're facing in the typical gang
prosecution under RICO.
Mr. Blanco. Certainly, sir. As you know, that's one of our
most important tools on the Federal level to attack these
gangs, both international and domestic.
Some of the challenges are the challenges that were just
mentioned earlier, and that is the safety of these victims and
the safety of witnesses and putting those individuals in places
where we can utilize them and that they feel safe.
That's probably the majority of what our challenges are, I
think that using the RICO statute as well as the VICAR and
other statutes. And let's not forget our narcotic statutes as
well. As was mentioned earlier, in many situations, if we don't
have a witness or a victim that can come forward, we'll use
other crimes for which we know that we can prosecute them and
get them for those crimes.
So those really, at least as far as I can see, and maybe my
law enforcement colleagues can say differently, are really our
challenges. But it is a very effective tool on the Federal
level to attack these gangs.
Mr. Rutherford. Thank you.
Captain Marks--or Mr. Vanek, first, if you would--I'm
particularly interested in the difficulties that may be created
by, you know, now the gangs have moved into this music nexus.
Does that impact on proving the criminal enterprise?
Mr. Vanek. It certainly helps. It is not the nail in the
coffin, per se, but it definitely helps with listening to their
lyrics, how they're talking. There are usually lots of tips and
clues that are involved in those songs. And then those
basically we kind of expand out from that and investigate those
types of crimes and see if we can connect them to what would be
a RICO statute.
Mr. Rutherford. Captain Marks, anything you'd like to add
on RICO prosecutions?
Captain Marks. Yes. So one of our partners on our grants is
the U.S. Attorney's Office. And we have a very good
relationship. The U.S. Attorney sits on our task force.
The challenge that we have with sex trafficking, RICO
statutes are phenomenal tools against gangs, but a lot of times
those are long, drawn-out investigations.
Generally, sex trafficking investigations start out very
small--one victim, one pimp--and then only after time it turns
into 11, 13 victims. And we can't allow that conduct to
continue, we're compelled to make an arrest right away to get
that dangerous criminal off the street, which really prohibits
us from pursuing a RICO Act where we need that investigation to
grow over a longer period of time.
Mr. Rutherford. Okay.
And, Mr. Vanek, the challenge that we have with flipping,
can you talk a little more about that and how that may be
impacting RICO prosecutions as well?
Mr. Vanek. Sure. Thank you.
When you are trying to get someone to cooperate in a murder
investigation or a RICO investigation where they're going to be
putting themselves, basically, out there for you, it is
difficult to put your--you have to put yourselves in their
shoes. They're still living in that area. They still have
friends. Their whole world will be eventually turned upside
down.
To provide them with the safety and understanding and the
guarantee that we will take care of them throughout the
process, because RICO statutes, RICO investigations, they take
a long time, that with protecting them and their families will
give them a sense of ease and will eventually make more people
want to come forward.
Mr. Rutherford. But are these flipping cases not more where
individuals--I understand the safety piece that Mr. Blanco
mentioned earlier. That's a huge issue that has to be
addressed. But there are those who are flipping--they're being
bought off, basically, by rival gangs, or whoever they may be
testifying against. What about that issue?
Mr. Vanek. That happens a lot.
Mr. Rutherford. Can we prosecute for that? Do we need
additional legislation to help fight that somehow or identify
that?
Mr. Vanek. I would say yes, any additional legislation on
that to help that cause would be greatly appreciated. Those are
investigated. But at times, again, you need witnesses, you
would need some sort of probably audio-video evidence of actual
threats being assailed where that person is actually--it's
usually a one-on-one type of thing. But now more and more with
social media those, they're being documented.
Mr. Rutherford. Thank you very much. My time has run out.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The time of the gentleman has expired.
The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Bass.
Ms. Bass. Thank you very much Mr. Chair and the Ranking
Member for holding this hearing today.
I was very excited to hear about this hearing because to me
it signaled what I hope is an indication that we actually will
look back at history over the last couple of decades and
consider doing something differently. Because what we have done
over the last 30 years is we have come up with so many laws,
gang enhancements, to incarcerate a lot of people, and I don't
think that we've necessarily spent much time looking at the
root causes as to why people get involved in gangs. And maybe
that's a hearing that we could do in the future.
I come from Los Angeles. I'm very proud of our city and our
county. I'm very glad that Captain Marks is here today. I think
that there were--I'm going to ask you a couple of questions,
because I want you to highlight the involvement that the
sheriff's department has with the communities.
And each of you mentioned that it can't be solved alone by
law enforcement, and we've relied too much on law enforcement.
We lock people up. They come home. And what we don't realize is
that then we have communities that have an overconcentration of
people who go in and out of prison, which actually kind
continues the cycle of violence.
And also, if we want to save money, that's not exactly the
way to do it.
And so I am hoping that this is an indication that we will
actually look back at the last 20 or 30 years, see what we've
learned, and try to do something different.
I also want to put you on notice, Captain Marks, and you
can tell the sheriff this, that I have invited my colleague
over there on the other side of the aisle, Steve Chabot, I've
invited him to Los Angeles because I want him to see how we
have gone about the work in L.A. differently.
Now, someone mentioned gang intervention workers. I think
you mentioned that, Mr. Slutkin. And that's something that we
have used in Los Angeles. And I know the captain knows that can
play both ways. I mean, we know that there's great examples of
that, but it's not a panacea, because sometimes the folks are
still involved in the life. But we've definitely been able to
make a difference.
So I spent 14 years working in the middle of South Central
at the height of the crack cocaine Crip and Blood crisis, and
we were able to make a difference there. The situation has
improved. We still have our problems. It's morphed now into sex
trafficking. It wasn't something we were dealing with 25 or 26
years ago.
But, Captain Marks, I do want you to mention the whole
campaign that was done in Los Angeles at the county, that no
child is considered a prostitute, that you guys are not
arresting, you guys are detaining and referring to services in
terms, you know, of the victim. So I wanted you to speak a bit
about that. And then I want to talk to Dr. Slutkin.
Captain Marks. Thank you, ma'am.
Yes, that is correct. Sheriff Jim McDonnell and the County
Board of Supervisors adopted a No Such Thing as a Child
Prostitute campaign where we don't refer to them or arrest them
as suspects. We treat them as the victims that they are.
Furthermore, that the county, the Board of Supervisors has
been very supportive. We've developed a countywide first
responder protocol which provides direction for law enforcement
when they identify sexually exploited children, that all county
departments come together and provide essential services for
those crucial first 72 hours to try to break that bond with the
sex trafficker and get them the help they need and back on the
right track.
Ms. Bass. Thank you very much.
You know, the program that I mentioned that I started in
South Central at the height of the crisis was actually funded
by the Federal Government. The government gave us a 5-year
grant. Now, the organization is now 26 years old, because we
developed other resources and moved on. But it was completely
based on the model, Dr. Slutkin, that you mentioned.
Sometimes we think that these communities are hopeless, and
we kind of throw in the towel, and then we just arrest
everybody. And then we let them out and the cycle continues.
So you were talking about Chicago. And Chicago is one of
those areas that I think we've checked the box as being
hopeless. And I wanted to know if you could talk just a little
bit more about what you think we can do in Congress to expand
the model you're talking about and make improvements.
We had a thousand homicides in L.A. at the height of the
crisis, and we are nowhere near that now.
Dr. Slutkin. Thank you, Congresswoman.
First, I think the number one thing to do is to add to
whatever it is that you're doing funds for intervention. It can
be into the Justice budget. They've been able to work with us
and our partners. And it's also in health budgets. And a very
small amount would multiply itself many, many times in terms of
lives saved.
I want to add that the chief of L.A. co-presented with me
at the Major Chiefs meeting and said that this was the thing
that caused the reduction, despite many other law enforcement
interventions not making a change over multiple years in L.A.
And I want to add that I understand this need, this desire
for the prosecutions and the punishment. It is not actually
affecting the people who are doing it. The people who are doing
it do not think that they're going to be prosecuted. They do
not think they're going to get caught. They need to be talked
to by intervention workers who will then help them shift their
thinking. They're being led by their peers, and we could put
peers in there in order to reduce the problem itself.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
The gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Chabot.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And first I wanted to apologize for not being here earlier
in the hearing. I'm chairman of the House Small Business
Committee, and one of my subcommittees had a hearing going on.
And it's tough to be in two places at once, although we all
struggle with that on a routine basis around here.
And I want to thank Ms. Bass for that invitation to visit
her district. And we have discussed this. And I absolutely
intend to do that. And perhaps back in my district, I represent
most of the city of Cincinnati, and we have our issues there as
well, and we'd like to learn from some of the successes that
you've had. And perhaps we can take those back to my district.
So I'm looking forward to that. It's just a matter of
coordinating the time.
Ms. Bass. Exactly.
Mr. Chabot. And we have traveled to Iraq together before.
And so, Ms. Bass, I consider her a good friend as well as a
colleague on this committee.
Just a couple quick questions. First of all, it's my
understanding that incarcerated gang members are using
contraband cell phones in prisons, various prisons, to conduct
all sorts of illicit gang activities outside the prison walls--
and it's not just gang members, I mean, adult criminals are
doing this as well--including drug trafficking, murder, witness
intimidation, and on and on.
And there have been some cutting-edge technological
improvements that we have now. Continuous wave beacon
technology is my understanding of one of those technologies.
And I would just--I'm not sure--I'll just open up, whoever
would like to take that. Could you discuss that? And if
somebody else has already asked this question, I apologize. But
anybody want to take that on?
Mr. Blanco. Happy to, Congressman.
Yes. Contraband cell phones, all kinds of items being
smuggled into prisons and to jails enables and emboldens these
not only in-jail gangs, but also the gangs that they deal with
outside of the jail. It's not only dangerous to the people on
the street, but it's also dangerous to the guards that are
inside the prisons as well.
It is a problem that we are working with. We're working
with our State and local partners to make sure that we have the
ability to reduce that. On many of the wiretaps that I read, at
least federally, when we see that there is a cell phone that's
being used in a prison or in an area where there are inmates,
we make sure that we notify our State and local authorities,
and we work with it that way.
But it is a significant problem that we're working on.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you.
I was involved and actually introduced a bill called the
Girls Count Act. Marco Rubio introduced it over in the Senate.
It became law. What this did is on a worldwide basis there were
50 or so million, especially young girls, that never got birth
certificates. And so they couldn't get government papers, and
they were targeted because they really couldn't identify who
these girls were. They were sold off by families. A whole range
of pretty horrific stuff. And I know that the gangs here in the
United States have been involved in sex trafficking, and
especially young girls.
Do you know if gangs are--are they targeting any--is this
occurring where women are brought into the country, targeted,
because of their lack of birth certificates or government
documentation? Does anybody know if that--is that something
that's occurring?
Captain Marks.
Captain Marks. Yes, sir. So the criminal street gangs in
the United States are targeting homegrown girls. So we have a
huge vulnerable population out there that have been victims of
abuse or neglect their entire lives. They're experts at
smelling out and finding those girls and targeting those girls.
So all of the victims that they are exploiting are domestic
females.
Mr. Chabot. Okay. Thank you.
My final question. I have like 1 minute here.
I was in Guatemala and Honduras last year. And we had a
real problem on our southern border where unaccompanied young
people were coming and flowing over our borders. And what I was
told down there is one of the principal problems are these
young people were fleeing the gangs back in their communities,
and the parents were sending them to try to get them away from
this.
And I've heard, you know, a number of news articles where
there are certain cities where we have seen gangs targeting
kids very aggressively to try to bring them in and intimidating
them if they don't get into the gangs. Would somebody like to
comment on that?
I see Mr. Blanco, you nodding, so----
Mr. Blanco. That, as you've mentioned, Congressman, that
nails it on the head. You'll see many of these international
gangs, for example, MS-13, targeting their very own people
because they're vulnerable. Not only are they vulnerable in
their countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, but
when they are here they are vulnerable because they have family
members back in those countries. So they not only intimidate
the young women here, but they intimidate the family members
back there.
It is a vicious cycle. We are working very hard with our
foreign counterparts and our local and domestic law enforcement
to see what kind of measures we can take to help them.
Mr. Chabot. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from--well, Mr. Lieu is not here.
The chair yields himself 5 minutes.
Mr. Blanco, as you may know, I'm the principal House author
of the CARA Act, which was designed to have a comprehensive
response to opioids, which passed last year and was signed by
President Obama. Fentanyl has been a mushrooming problem, and
it's deadly.
Are you seeing street gangs distributing fentanyl? And
where are they getting it from?
Mr. Blanco. Mr. Chairman, yes. And they're getting it from
many different sources. Sometimes these gang members are
getting it from rival gangs, because it is about making money.
Sometimes they are associated with the gang members overseas,
so they have a distribution network that they receive those--
the fentanyl from, too.
But they also, Chairman, I think you'll notice this, the
other day, too, we did a healthcare takedown where we went
after healthcare professionals and pill clinics. They get them
from there, too.
So it's across the board. It is a moneymaker. And as you
mentioned earlier, it's deadly. And it's killing so many of our
young people. And not only young people, parents. It's across
the board.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Mr. Vanek, you have mentioned the
practice of flipping, which is extortion pure and simple, where
it is very difficult to get people to testify for the--I was
going to say prostitution, but I will say prosecution.
Now, is there a way to lock in their testimony through a
grand jury, which makes it less likely to be flipped? And have
prosecutors been able to prove that flipping has occurred,
which a form of obstruction of justice?
Mr. Vanek. On the Federal level I would say that it's a lot
easier and they take their grand jury very seriously. On the
State level, I can assure that even with locking them into a
grand jury statement, even locking them into a video statement,
when it comes to trial and they get on the stand, they flip.
And they then do not benefit, either the prosecution side, but
there's other ulterior motives, like I have stated before.
Why? Perjury charges on the State level are few and far
between for that. I know as investigators we would love to see
that happen. It's something that happens routinely on the State
level.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. I have a number of questions for
Dr. Slutkin.
You give a very interesting scenario and very comforting
success ratios for what you have been doing. I guess the
problem that we have is, is that there's been an erosion of
personal responsibility in our society. And if you treat gang
violence as a public health problem--now, murdering someone to
me seems a lot different than vomiting uncontrollably when you
have the flu.
So stopping the murders has got to require, you know,
increased realization of personal responsibility and what a
murder actually consists of, and that's ending a human life and
having untold grief with loved ones and family members.
Does your program, you know, emphasize personal
responsibility as well as all of the other things you have
testified to?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes, Mr. Chairman. And this is part of the
conversation with the individuals that intervention workers
have. And there is no objection to what is required if a
violent act has occurred, what law enforcement needs to do.
What we're saying is that these workers can talk to someone
when they're thinking about possibly doing something. And that
talking to them then allows them the time to cool down, to feel
validated, whatever they need to just cool down. Because
they're usually upset actually not about some of the things
that are being discussed here. They're really being--they're
really doing murders about a girlfriend or about money owed to
them or about disrespect or something like that.
We are able to cool them down and say, ``Listen, this
doesn't make sense,'' and the event doesn't happen. And
retaliations don't happen. And the communities get safer.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. In the time I have left I have
two, you know, quick questions.
Do you have public-private partnerships or do you rely
exclusively on money you get from the Justice Department?
Dr. Slutkin. Oh, no. The funds per city or per country are
variable. I mean, in New York City the funds are supplied by
the city and the State. Baltimore, it's Federal Government and
also foundations. Chicago, it's been the State. And the Inter-
American Development Bank, USAID, the World Bank, others, have
funded the international work. So it's been foundations and--
the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation has funded this. Justice
Department. I should say also the Justice Department funded the
independent evaluation of Chicago's work.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. One last question. Is your program
in Milwaukee? Because we got a big crime problem there.
Dr. Slutkin. We're not working in Milwaukee at this moment
as far as I know, but we're in discussions with them. We have
been asked to work with them.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Who in Milwaukee are you talking to?
Dr. Slutkin. My staff know better. I believe it's the
health department and also the trauma hospital centers.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. Okay. Let me know about that.
Dr. Slutkin. I certainly will, sir.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. I will, you know, ask the gentlewoman
from Texas if she wishes a second round. If so, she's
recognized for 5 minutes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, I would be delighted. Thank
you for your courtesies.
Let me follow the chairman's line of questioning and ask
specifically about Houston. Are you in Houston?
Dr. Slutkin. No.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So let me publicly extend an invitation
for Cure Violence to visit and to have us pursue the
opportunity.
Dr. Slutkin. I'd be happy to.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank you very much.
Let me first of all thank our colleagues that were here,
the chairman and Ms. Bass. We thank Mr. Lieu, who had to step
out for another hearing, for his presence here.
I want to pursue the line of questioning, and if I might
make a comment.
Mr. Blanco, I thank you for your commitment to the Juvenile
Block Grant Accountability Act. This goes through a series of
dollars that law enforcement can use in their work, and it's
been very effective. So I'm not sure your area familiar, but
make yourself familiar with it, because we have modified it,
Captain, to include cyberbullying, intervention, and issues
dealing with best practices.
So, Captain, let me ask you, Juvenile Block Grant, any
resources to help you in your work with juveniles, would that
be helpful to you from the Federal Government?
Captain Marks. It absolutely would. We're in desperate need
to reach out to that population, the young kids, and get on
social media with messaging about the dangers that operate on
the internet and how kids are being exploited.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Well, I want to work very hard to get
those resources with your Member, because I believe your work
should be both promoted and celebrated.
Dr. Slutkin, let me ask you a technical question. Please
explain the contagion effect as it pertains to behavioral
transfer from brain to brain. And how do we reverse the adverse
impact, i.e., trauma, anxiety, PTSD, and depression, that has
already occurred in those subjected to rigorous violence?
And then, if I can add, as you intervene and you stop the
dear brother mostly from going after X, Y, Z, does that dear
brother cool off in front of you, circle around, and catch X,
Y, Z the next day?
Dr. Slutkin. Yes, thank you. So the first part of this is
how the contagion occurs. There are cortical neurons in our
brain that pick up what we see other people do. This is true
for all of us. And violence is especially picked up because
it's so salient.
Secondly, dopamine pathways and pain pathways allow us to
unconsciously copy and want to do what others are doing. Moms
do what other moms are doing. No one in this room is smoking,
whereas we used to smoke. A third of us were smoking when I was
in medical school watching angiograms.
But the norms get changed. The norms have changed. And now
we can get to a person who is about to do--use a gun and say,
``Wait a second, what are you thinking?'' and give him a
different expectation.
So added onto these processes, which are described in this
book, are the effects of trauma that you have mentioned. The
trauma causes people to be hyper-reactive and thinking
everything is against them.
All of these things are reversible. In the short term we
cool someone down. They're on hot. Their amygdala is hot. We
cool them down. We let them go down to where they can listen to
someone. We validate their concerns. And then we reframe this
so that they feel that they're still positive to be able to do
this.
And your last question, we now then will stay with that
person for 6 months to 2 years, so he will not circle back. Our
staff called this ``babysitting'' or ``shadowing.'' So that the
long-term effect on that person is a stick, so that he does not
relapse. He and his friends are managed so that they will no
longer do this.
Ms. Jackson Lee. You made a very important point earlier in
your testimony saying people don't think about I'm going to
court, I'm going to trial, I'm going to be incarcerated.
Dr. Slutkin. Furthest thing from their minds.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So do you think the leadership that we now
have at the Justice Department--let me just be generic.
Leadership that would want to emphasize mandatory minimums,
taking away prosecutorial discretion so that a judge, a
prosecutor may say this is juvenile, it may be obviously a very
unfortunate crime, but the prosecutor may see another option.
Do you think that kind of intervention is important?
Because then you have the opportunity to deal with some of
these healing factors that you're talking about. And a lot of
it is brain to brain or emulating something else. Do you think
that discretion is important? And do you think there's any
value in mandatory minimums?
Dr. Slutkin. So just to reemphasize, we are completely
apolitical, we are health people. I think that the punishment
has really been overemphasized and it scientifically is not
really what is driving the causing of behavior or the changing
of behavior.
So we have to really reeducate ourselves as to how
behaviors are actually formed and how they are actually
changed. So any discretion that allows alternatives where
people who know how to do behavior change and that can help
that person not do it.
We see a rap sheet actually as a set of untreated moments
that should have been managed in a different way to prevent
these additional courses. And there is plenty of data now that
shows that people--even the highest risk people--can be
changed.
Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the chairman for his indulgence,
and I thank the witness for his testimony.
Mr. Sensenbrenner. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
This concludes today's hearing, and we are about ready to
vote. Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative
days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses
and additional materials for the record.
And without objection, the hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:01 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]